Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

[Iamwhomiam]

I agree emphatically that all sorts of risky precedents are at play or potential play. Some of the worst I can imagine in fact.

I'm also very confident that masks and social distancing help reduce transmission and save lives. Much like I believe about vaccines in general while passionately and totally opposing them ever being mandatory.

So I have no difficulty separating out in my own mind that one can 100% oppose any criminalization of what need to be consensual opt-ins and still passionately support the proposed measures.

Please *choose* to wear a mask in public places.

Please. Please. Please.

I have no problem with this. Obviously, I advocate breathing responsibly. With so many unknowns, why try to help out however you can?

And about vaccines, all I want is mechanisms in place that at least try to demonstrate that each and every recommended vaccine's benefits exceed its costs and risks. As it stands today, our medical community assumes that this is true for every vaccine ever invented to date or yet to be invented until proven otherwise by mechanisms purposefully designed not to be able to quantify the health risks of any approved vaccine while shielding vaccine manufacturers of all liability of any harms their vaccines might inflict. How does such a system make sense unless you assume that all vaccine manufacturers are somehow uniquely altruistic among capitalists or that all vaccines are uniquely harmless among pharmacologically active substances?

"I have no problem with this. Obviously, I advocate breathing responsibly. With so many unknowns, why try to help out however you can?"

That last bit stickdog, is cold! I suppose the firefighters who were killed on 911 felt differently, as I do. Why is there any question when it come to helping someone in need? Risk to self? Only a selfish person could ask such a question. I'm sure Joe's aware of the risks he takes fighting brush and forest fires and would feel the same as I do as an EMT. We enjoy helping those in need even when risk is involved.

That bit ^^^ was an afterthought. What prompted me to comment, was this:

"And about vaccines, all I want is mechanisms in place that at least try to demonstrate that each and every recommended vaccine's benefits exceed its costs and risks"

I completely agree with you, stickdog. I believe you should be promoting the adoption of the Precautionary Principle as often as you can. http://www.precautionaryprinciple.eu/

If the precautionary principle was adopted there would be no such thing as an unsafe medicine or vaccination.

https://www.sehn.org/precautionary-principle-understanding-science-in-regulation

"When an activity raises threats of harm to human health or the environment, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. In this context the proponent of an activity, rather than the public, should bear the burden of proof. The process of applying the precautionary principle must be open, informed and democratic and must include potentially affected parties. It must also involve an examination of the full range of alternatives, including no action." - Wingspread Statement on the Precautionary Principle, Jan. 1998

[0_0]

I wish the option "no action" was a lot more popular in general, sadly people who are interested in "no action" typically don't get heard in a society that's all about action action action.

[DrEvil]

To me, it sets a ridiculously bad precedent to criminalize coming within six feet of other people or failing to wear a mask.

Not really a precedent. Look up Typhoid Mary.

Too many people, even many here, do not seem to appreciate the very basic idea that almost everyone will be exposed to this virus one way or another before this is over. All we can possibly do by steering clear of others is to flatten the curve. Are you really in favor of jailing someone who may or may not actually have a certain virus for potentially transmitting to someone something with the potential to perhaps harm this person at a time that is potentially not optimal in terms of available medical resources for this person to be exposed to something that he or she will soon almost certainly be exposed to anyway?

If you're supposed to be in quarantine because you've had close contact with someone who tested positive then yes, you should get slapped if you ignore it. Jail is probably too harsh unless you're being exceptionally stupid, like repeatedly breaking quarantine or coughing on people on purpose.

Why not criminalize sex? Sex has the potential to lead to all sorts of ill health effects. Aren't you willfully risking the health of your partners in the same sort of manner every time you have sex?

If you intentionally infect someone else with an STD then that's already a criminal offense.

That's a bizarre reply. I mean, if you put COVID-19 in someone's drink in order to infect them, sure you should go to jail. But how does going outside without a mask or coming within 4 feet of someone have anything to do with intentionally infecting someone else with a STD?

And I don't think you would bat an eye if any heathen who committed the high crime of refusing vaccination or not wearing a required mask were intentionally infected with disease as punishment. I mean, look up Typhoid Mary.

You started talking about the dangers of sex, I replied. Not that hard to follow.

I was pointing out that most of the things you mentioned in your wall of whataboutism and rhetorical overload already are illegal if you do them irresponsibly/wrong/stupidly, just like it now is illegal in many places to act irresponsibly/wrong/stupidly in regards to the virus. The same principle applies: your freedom stops where it starts hurting others.

I agree that some of the penalties seem overly draconian, but to be honest I'm not sure if asking politely would work. Too many selfish assholes and just plain dumb people in the world (Exhibit A: woman with breathing hole in her mask. See also: The Republican Party).

And I don't think you would bat an eye if any heathen who committed the high crime of refusing vaccination or not wearing a required mask were intentionally infected with disease as punishment.

Of course. If someone disagrees with you it has to be because they're a raging psychopath. No other possible explanation.

[Karmamatterz]

If you're supposed to be in quarantine because you've had close contact with someone who tested positive then yes, you should get slapped if you ignore it.

Holy cow you are a little fascist prick.

Would close contact mean within 6'? So maybe on a sunny day with a breeze if we're within 2-3' of someone who had tested positive 2 months ago they should be slapped? Why not just punch them? Oh hell, let's just go back to dragging their ass through the streets. That was a popular thing on here a few months back.

So there is a debate on RI about wearing masks? Nobody sees any cult symbolism about the masquerade? Give up your identity? The muzzle? OBEY?

Two days ago I was outside doing yard work on a rather lovely evening when some of my neighbors spontaneously came ambling over. Was a very lovely conversation that we all had in VERY close proximity to each other. One of them is a doctor at a local clinic, the other is the lab director at our local hospital. We've all kept rather to ourselves for several weeks and there was much catchup to do. I jokingly asked the two white coat medical professionals why they weren't wearing their masks. Both of them laughed and then proceeded to tell me what a joke it is that people think we should be wearing masks in the outdoors. They also think social distancing is rather stupid outdoors as well.

We all hung out for a good hour or so playing the the dogs, chatting and walking about in close proximity. My lab director friend even came in for a big hug. I burst out laughing and dodged her saying "oh hell no you work at the hospital with all those bugs and we can't hug until the contact tracing squad approves it." As the convo proceeded we discussed more about the lies, bad data and fallacy about homemade masks. I asked them why they won't speak publicly and they both looked down at the ground and got uncomfortable. One said she's fearful of what the administration would do if they found out. I suspect many medical professionals would agree.

I will not wear a mask unless it's super important I have to be in a place that requires it. I will never ever allow myself to be vaccinated for this shit unless they are holding a gun to my head. Gates, Fauci and all those assholes can shove any vaccine up their ass.

By the way, did anybody catch this?

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releas ... -covid-19/

Then there is this. DOD and HHS awarded Apiject with a $138 million contract to manufacture syringes for when the "miracle" vaccine appears. How exciting! Maybe people will even get to have the vaccine every year like that good 'ol trusty flu vaccine. Wonder how much mercury or peanut oil will be in these doses?

https://www.rapidconsortium.com

Scroll to the bottom where the PDF is and it describes the cute tidbit about how RFID tech is used to track the vaccinations. It made me so warm and fuzzy to think that science professor Bill Gates is looking out for me. Those of you who had to use Windows for years must feel super safe by now, or just used to viruses.

[liminalOyster]

So there is a debate on RI about wearing masks? Nobody sees any cult symbolism about the masquerade? Give up your identity? The muzzle? OBEY?

I'm pretty sure the current status of the situation is that everyone calls the other side a fascist and acts a like a fascist. Fun for awhile until you just want to jump ship and drown like a flea in just-washed-dog bath water.

Holy cow you are a little fascist prick.

[norton ash]

I'll wear mine in the grocery store to be polite. Or if I don't feel like putting my denture plates in.

I'm just a sheep waiting for Gates to take my pineal gland and put a flash drive in my third eye.

[Elvis]

I remember when many people demanded the right to cover their faces with masks if they chose not to be recognized.

[liminalOyster]

I don't really mind losing early MJ material to the reveal that he was an evil sadist pedophile, but losing this antifa anthem hurts a bit ....

[mentalgongfu2]

So there is a debate on RI about wearing masks? Nobody sees any cult symbolism about the masquerade? Give up your identity? The muzzle? OBEY?

In what sense does wearing a covering over your mouth and nose equate to giving up your identity, let alone cult symbolism and masquerade?

I have had no trouble being recognized. I even wondered, the first time I wore my makeshift mask from bandanas. But the folks at my local liquor store recognized me immediately and greeted me by name. Did you have trouble recognizing the picture below as Michael Jackson? I feel in no way muzzled or as if I am "obeying" anything other than common courtesy and general health guidelines.

If you want to argue it is some fascist stepping stone/cult symbolism/destruction of identity/muzzle, please explain HOW.

[0_0]

Hey i dont know if anyone can actually read my posts here lol. I posted that syringe links just the previous page Karmamatterz and i explained the (really obvious and basic) symbology there also, multiple times. Are you guys on the 4 real?

[Spiro C. Thiery]

I remember when many people demanded the right to cover their faces with masks if they chose not to be recognized.

This topic presented itself leading up to the first of May in Berlin, as face covering of the nose and mouth variety at demonstrations is a punishable offence that can land the offender in jail for up to a year or cost them over half a grand in euro looneys, at least theoretically, which, of course, is enough to do the trick in any case law and order deems it convenient.

As of then and still yet, however, there is no established face mask requirement except for indoor shops. So May 1st went down amid social distancing, at least to an observably large degree. Not that there weren't plenty of masked celebrants and protesters old and new that didn't have to worry about being busted. Still - an interesting convergence of circumstance.

Not even traditional sitdown eateries, many of which will be opening there doors for the first time since the (semi) shutdown today, will require the mask once you're seated at a table a meter and a half from the next. Though, if you're going to open a sitting and eating centrum, I'm not sure how a mask would work.

All this to conclude that, as it relates to measures taken against the pandemic and the subsequent scaling back of the same, there is not a discrepancy of policy between nation states that is as great as one might be led to believe. I can tell you with relative assurance that most German states will be holding their breath this weekend, as will the restaurant owners/workers who are desperately hoping to begin to be able to get their heads above water.

[Elvis]

On one hand I rather like the ability to foil facial recognition, with lawful impunity.

[dada]

When I'm out in public, the other people don't know where I've been. And I don't know where they're headed, say someone is going to visit a nursing home or something. It's just added stress for them to be around people not wearing masks. So wearing a mask in this situation is a small way of lessening some people's daily mental anguish. That's enough reason for me, I don't need any other rationale.

I think any size group mind, all collective ways of life are flawed at the foundations. Plain and simple.Yet people work hard to prop up these flawed foundations, they don't know what else to do. You may not agree with me.

But I can't do anything about that. All I can do is make things easier for the individuals that I come in contact with.

As for the symbolism of the mask, that's really up to personal interpretation, isn't it? That's the thing about symbolification. Ninety-nine people might interpret a symbol one way, while one interprets it in another. And both interpretations are just as valid.

Just the way symbols work. Have you read Bruno's 'expulsion of the beast truimphant?' Jupiter decides to change the symbolic meanings of the constellations, so he convenes a meeting of the planets and some of his friends. They proceed to take down the nasty, negative nfluences, and raise up the moral, positive ones. Cute idea.

[Sounder]

I'm with you dada, wear the mask out of courtesy and to lessen others anxiety.

However, there are more relevant issues to examine with this Covid situation. This woman spells it out while talking in the Italian parliament.

[alloneword]

I don't wear a mask, for the simple reason that, as far as I've seen so far, there isn't any credible evidence that doing so is going to help any body - but there is evidence that doing so will not.

Masks can make the wearer more complacent about other - arguably more effective - infection control practices.

Using masks at a time of national shortage obviously denies their use to other - more vulnerable or at risk - people.

If the weight of available evidence shifts to support my wearing one in some circumstances, I'll reconsider.

I'm sure it's a lot easier to believe in their efficacy if you subscribe to the current prevailing set of beliefs regarding the actual risk posed by 'Covid-19' - although, I'd have thought that a belief in the fear-mongering put out by Governments might make people a little more likely to listen to their advice with regard to masks. But clearly not.

But yes, @dada... The mask as a 'symbol'. Were I being unkind, I might suggest that they represent a form of virtue-signalling or display of fealty, somewhat akin to a modern day 'Che Guevara' T-shirt.

In fact, the whole adherence to 'Lockdown' could perhaps be seen as the cheapest display of virtue-signalling ever devised, in that all that is required of it's participants is to literally do absolutely nothing, except sit, staring at the wallpaper, waiting for some free money to appear, occasionally opening the front door to clap like a performing seal - whilst saving lives, of course.