US Presidential Election 2020

[JackRiddler]

Isn't there something to be said for the rise of the fascist international during Donald's tenure, by which I mean the people and parties that identify as fascists. I'd say Donald provides a certain global sense of empowerment to the far-right wing.

I don't like that. Not to mention what he's done to the poor internet.

Yes, agreed and important.

[Belligerent Savant]

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This has already been implied by some of the comments above, but it appears increasingly clear Trump was controlled opposition from the onset. An ideal/widely successful iteration of it, in many respects. He keeps his 'target audience' captivated by these theatrical would-be legal actions to pacify his fervent base, but it's never intended to be anything more than optics/theatrics. Selecting Rudy to support his case was the reveal for those paying attention: this was not an earnest effort.
It helps offset frustration Re: LEGITIMATE VOTER FRAUD, which certainly occurred in this election, while never actually changing anything about outcome or process. Par for the course, naturally. Both establishment parties partake in it, historically.
Sure, part of his current voter fraud pursuits are to help corral would-be consumers for his next venture (OAN, etc -- as dada alludes), but we shouldn't discount other back-door agreements. One doesn't arrive as Stooge-In-Chief without certain arrangements made -- prior to, during, and post-tenure.

The other great value-add Trump brings to the table is his ability to inspire practically half the population to be vehemently opposed to certain talking points simply because it may be tied to a tweet or comment uttered by Trump. This is quite powerful stuff.

There isn't a day when I don't consider this as a possibility.

Let's look at all the ways in which that thing we sometimes shorthand as the "deep state" went after him: a) ignored the many pecuniary crimes of the family/org before they took power and b) ignored the actual crimes against humanity of the Trump regime in power, while c) fabricating accusations about less serious crimes that d) were supposed to originate not in American ruling class SOP, as practiced by Trump his whole life, but in some vague non-existent plot by an official foreign enemy, which e) also contributed to the false take among many on the left that Trump was somehow antiwar or at least isolationist, even as he amped up the wars, and f) also promoted aggressive New Cold War policy among the anti-Trump liberals, and g) won sympathies among his supporters, since anti-Trumpism was associated with a "witchhunt" rather than real accusations, and, after the multi-year soap opera that enraptured the entire establishment, corporate media and liberal technocracy although 98 percent of the population did not even follow, h) it all shockingly (I mean predictably, of course) turned out to have no effect whatsoever in displacing trump from office, let alone putting the motherfucker in prison, but solidified his support while also turning the educated liberal set into a cultish anti-Trump following ready to believe any story about Russia etc. no matter how outlandish and prepared to be as authoritarian as the right-wingers always were, if with a non-fascist ideology and different ideas of whom they wish to stamp out. Both "sides" in this artificial binary will, in their own way, support austerity and the roll-back of speech and political rights that will mainly hit the real left, organized manifestations of real protest among the lower orders, eco-movements, and anti-war and anti-statist/capitalist critique. To take another shorthand: Trump regime and "liberal establishment" are both working to kill Assange. That about right?

Yes. Well-articulated. Sums up this theory well.

Okay, so the idea of a fully scripted kayfabe version of the Trump years as one complete psyop with him playing his role is not a joke. It is unprovable, and also something that could have predictably arisen from existing elements in interaction autopoetically (I have decided this is the right spelling henceforth for this word).

All that being said, BS, you are regularly downplaying the extent to which the white supremacist/Christian fanatic/fascistoid-reactionary right-wing is a real manifestation, better organized than liberals or "the left," more systemically powerful in both conventional politics and arguably the political economy. This convergence of ideologies has been used to organize a base by the GOP for five decades now. The success and outrages of the right have been the real hammer by which the liberals were shaped into a unified counter-authoritarianism and anti-laborism, and diverted both from any liberatory agenda as well as near any remaining sense of reality on their own part. And this genuine and powerful right-wing has also been cultivated by a lot of fucking extreme right wing authoritarian billionaire money that usually gets downplayed on RI, since y'all are so busy decrying the plots of those extreme authoritarian billionaires whom the corporate media has identified as "liberal," as if this is what they ever were.

By the way, anyone noticed the surviving Koch brother pretending to be sorry he was so partisan, even as his outfit continues to pump hundreds of millions into more of the same? I think it's a form of victory dance. You get to make your omelette and pretend you're sorry about the eggs.

As for real voter fraud, BS, I assume you mean the accustomed vote suppression measures?

Perhaps I don't raise it as often as it's not a topic of dispute here in RI, though I don't believe the "white supremacist/Christian fanatic/fascistoid-reactionary right-wing" have demonstrably showcased more global-scale carnage than the other factions. Arguably, one can claim the neo-liberal/'letter agency' factions have been more successful in carrying out domestic and international acts of terrorism, but how can such things be enumerated? Can someone calculate loss of lives and livelihoods as direct results of actions taken per faction? All of this is done under the U.S. banner, in any event. They are all responsible for misery and egregious acts against humanity. Letter agencies help cultivate, foster, and embed themselves in most domestic -- and international -- reactionary movements on both ends of the spectrum here (Antifa, White Supremacist groups, etc.).
It may be that, at a certain level, these apparent dividing lines may not be as firmly drawn; or perhaps there are moments of strategic partnerships.

Rhetorical side-note: which ones are responsible for the global sex/human trafficking rings?

With respect to this:

As for real voter fraud, BS, I assume you mean the accustomed vote suppression measures?

Yes, though we can't rule out manipulation of vote tallies either, can we? For example, there were indications of vote tally shenanigans in 2016 (and also in prior elections as well).

Here's one breadcrumb from 2016:



If indeed these weren't due to machine glitches, is it impossible that similar actions, among others, were also carried out in 2020?

[JackRiddler]

Let's stick to points of serious divide among us.

reactionary movements on both ends of the spectrum here (Antifa, White Supremacist groups, etc.).

Etc. my ass. I can't believe you would uphold this ridiculous equation.

Antifa is anti-fascism. I am antifa and fuck the fascists. Regardless of who's manipulating what behind the scenes, one is as wrong as anything can be and has no justification to exist. I don't make excuses for openly exterminationist ideologies on the basis of whether they've developed sufficient power yet to murder more people or cause more damage than the established institutions of empire and capitalism. Their growth is the fastest path to the worst hell.

As kayfabe or not, Trump announced possession of leadership of literal fascists, the Proud Boys (and this was hardly the first such case) and also said in advance of this election that his side would work to overturn any result that doesn't have him winning, as they are still attempting. The attempt is not over and could have worked, if the results had been any closer. This motherfucker started his campaign by calling my Mexican brothers and sisters rapists and mobsters. If he's holding the office of the presidency and travels with the Football, I really don't care if someone "really is" Hitler or is "only" playing him on TV as a script. I'll take my chances with the other assholes. When they are at their worst, they are fulfilling what the fascists actually say they desire. Being less hypocritical is not something I register as a point in favor of the fascists.

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[Marionumber1]

Perhaps I don't raise it as often as it's not a topic of dispute here in RI, though I don't believe the "white supremacist/Christian fanatic/fascistoid-reactionary right-wing" have demonstrably showcased more global-scale carnage than the other factions. Arguably, one can claim the neo-liberal/'letter agency' factions have been more successful in carrying out domestic and international acts of terrorism, but how can such things be enumerated? Can someone calculate loss of lives and livelihoods as direct results of actions taken per faction? All of this is done under the U.S. banner, in any event. They are all responsible for misery and egregious acts against humanity. Letter agencies help cultivate, foster, and embed themselves in most domestic -- and international -- reactionary movements on both ends of the spectrum here (Antifa, White Supremacist groups, etc.).
It may be that, at a certain level, these apparent dividing lines may not be as firmly drawn; or perhaps there are moments of strategic partnerships.

Rhetorical side-note: which ones are responsible for the global sex/human trafficking rings?

Well, who are the operatives that these letter agencies tend to use to carry out their terror operations? As the history of Gladio, our numerous coups in Latin American countries, 9/11, child trafficking rings in Colorado, etc. indicates, it is almost always forces on the extreme right. And this is no surprise, because the corporate fascists behind the scenes share many of the same ideals (racism, militarism, and a social Darwinist worldview) with these ground-level fascist groups. The danger isn't abstract or exaggerated; it is underrepresented if anything, especially in most of the "alternative" media. How did it not become a major scandal, for instance, that the FBI had been concerned about the scope of white supremacist infiltration of police departments for over a decade yet buried the information?

I think calling Antifa "reactionary" is definitely a misuse of that word, and it is certainly not something to be casually lumped in with white supremacist groups as if they're morally equivalent. The conflation of the two feels to me like it's by design: the same "alternative" media that largely downplays white supremacy as a problem in the United States loves to hype up Antifa as a major threat. No surprise, then, that we've ended up with a radically authoritarian sentiment among much of the conservative base (even more than there already was) that automatically sees anti-fascist protest as terrorism and cheerleads any law enforcement action against their fellow citizens, including literal kidnapping by federal agents. I have watched in real time as many people in the "conspiracy" community who spent years worried about a police state now turn around and defend an actual police state that is right under their noses. And while I'm not accusing anyone here of doing that, the fact that it's gotten to this point should raise serious questions about the "alt" media narrative surrounding Antifa. I would further say that if there are genuine acts of terror that appear to come from far-left forces, we should remember the history of Gladio and be very suspicious of the possibility that they are provocateurs.

[Belligerent Savant]

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Are you both suggesting "antifa" is not compromised, at least in part? Yes, "antifa" is literally "anti-fascist" in name, but we all know the name of an organization -- particularly in politics -- is by no means a signifier of true intent. In execution, at least some aspects of Antifa activity has been infiltrated by, and at times, operating at the behest of letter agencies, or at least elements associated with such agencies.

Or is this in dispute?

Did Epstein (as an example) cater to and/or associate only with those that identify as "far right", at least publicly? Such terms don't apply to those in the upper reaches of power, influence and wealth, at least not in the same way it does to the boots on the ground.

I'm not referring here to various media-based narrative-framing of these issues. Yes, mainstream and alternative media will manipulate narratives regularly, which in turn will influence and condition mindsets on the so-called/self-identified "Left" and "Right" demographics. But my prior commentary is not about the media's distortions, it's about identifying root causes, drivers, and underlying actors (vs overt theatrics as presented by media).

What's really going on? My point is that aspects of this "Antifa" movement here in the U.S. have been compromised and utilized, particularly in the past ~year, to manipulate sentiment. To add yet another wedge. This is a separate topic than the genuine goals of Antifa, broadly.

Speaking only for myself, I don't consider myself a member of the "conspiracy" community, whatever the F that may mean. I abhor labels. My opinions are based on my observations/readings over time. In no way do I "defend" a police state. To the contrary, I'm calling out manipulations in all its forms and guises, regardless of OUTWARD presentation.

These points you raise are not mutually exclusive from mine.

[Belligerent Savant]

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Worth repeating:

I post this because it's a useful compendium, and if nothing else, proves that your jesters have a firmer grasp of just what the fuck is going on than either the citizenry or media. If anyone has seen Mark Ruffalo's Dark Waters a very 'worthy' film about industrial environment murderers DuPont chemical (it's a moving and extremely infuriating movie (for all the right reasons) and also a reasonably decent drama, even if not 'great' cinema) you'll be wondering what the fuck one of their former consultants is doing running the EPA. Par for the fucking course.

If you believe you have a democracy, then any one of you who voted for any of these fucks is as responsible as they are for everything they are going to do. Just don't tell us that Trump was somehow exceptionally bad and so it was 'necessary' to continue doing exactly the same thing he did with a different brand name. He was exactly as American as Biden will be, and just as American as President Harris will turn out to be.

You cannot vote out the assholes.

[dada]

This is, and will always be an antifascist message board. Says so at the top, rule number one I think. Rigorous Intuition is antifa.

[DrEvil]

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Are you both suggesting "antifa" is not compromised, at least in part? Yes, "antifa" is literally "anti-fascist" in name, but we all know the name of an organization -- particularly in politics -- is by no means a signifier of true intent. In execution, at least some aspects of Antifa activity has been infiltrated by, and at times, operating at the behest of letter agencies, or at least elements associated with such agencies.

Or is this in dispute?

Did Epstein (as an example) cater to and/or associate only with those that identify as "far right", at least publicly? Such terms don't apply to those in the upper reaches of power, influence and wealth, at least not in the same way it does to the boots on the ground.

I'm not referring here to various media-based narrative-framing of these issues. Yes, mainstream and alternative media will manipulate narratives regularly, which in turn will influence and condition mindsets on the so-called/self-identified "Left" and "Right" demographics. But my prior commentary is not about the media's distortions, it's about identifying root causes, drivers, and underlying actors (vs overt theatrics as presented by media).

What's really going on? My point is that aspects of this "Antifa" movement here in the U.S. have been compromised and utilized, particularly in the past ~year, to manipulate sentiment. To add yet another wedge. This is a separate topic than the genuine goals of Antifa, broadly.

Speaking only for myself, I don't consider myself a member of the "conspiracy" community, whatever the F that may mean. I abhor labels. My opinions are based on my observations/readings over time. In no way do I "defend" a police state. To the contrary, I'm calling out manipulations in all its forms and guises, regardless of OUTWARD presentation.

These points you raise are not mutually exclusive from mine.

Antifa isn't an organization, it's a creed. If you're opposed to fascism you're antifa to one degree or other.

The people we usually think of when someone says antifa are the ones actively opposing fascists by going out into the streets, and those groups have been "compromised", in the sense that police will dress up as demonstrators and break shit so they have an excuse to bring down the hammer.

The government has almost certainly infiltrated individual groups of anti-fascists, but they haven't infiltrated antifa as there is no antifa to infiltrate.

[JackRiddler]

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Are you both suggesting "antifa" is not compromised, at least in part?

What the fuck difference would it make? Fascists are objectively the bad guys who made their own choice to be fascists and can fuck the fuck off. I am not suggesting but upholding that anti-fascist efforts (it's not a single organization) are right and necessary and courageous and heroic. That doesn't change if the motherfucking COINTELPRO is invading them to destroy them, or paint them as a threat. Anti-fascism is subject to a disgusting campaign of defamation, conducted both by the corporate media and the motherfucking fascists and their fellow travelers, to equate them with fascists or suggest they are a terrorist threat. It's like saying the Black Panthers are the same thing as the KKK, a mistake NO ONE would have been so confused as to make in the 1960s.

If Oswald is a plant running a fake Hands Off Cuba Committee, would your conclusion be that leaving Cuba alone and waging war on it are the same thing?

[Belligerent Savant]

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Are you both suggesting "antifa" is not compromised, at least in part?

What the fuck difference would it make? Fascists are objectively the bad guys who made their own choice to be fascists and can fuck the fuck off. I am not suggesting but upholding that anti-fascist efforts (it's not a single organization) are right and necessary and courageous and heroic. That doesn't change if the motherfucking COINTELPRO is invading them to destroy them, or paint them as a threat. Anti-fascism is subject to a disgusting campaign of defamation, conducted both by the corporate media and the motherfucking fascists and their fellow travelers, to equate them with fascists or suggest they are a terrorist threat. It's like saying the Black Panthers are the same thing as the KKK, a mistake NO ONE would have been so confused as to make in the 1960s.

If Oswald is a plant running a fake Hands Off Cuba Committee, would your conclusion be that leaving Cuba alone and waging war on it are the same thing?

Come on, now. Of course fascism in all its forms needs to be stomped out. Where have I suggested otherwise?

Is it not important to call out when fascists, masquerading as anti-fascists, attempt to undermine anti-fascist movements? Can anti-fascist movements succeed when there are instances of infiltration and/or sentiment manipulations perpetrated by those in media and govt operating at the behest of fascists ?

It seems we strayed from the larger view here. Manipulation of information is increasingly pervasive, and successful, in perpetuating discord. Demonstrably.


Dr.Evil: yes, I understand 'antifa' is not a single org, per se, but actions taken by antifa will be organized, more often than not. I'm referring to organized actions/movements. Anything organized can be infiltrated.

Dada: I'm fully aware this is an anti-fascist board. What did I type to suggest I needed this reminder? I've been a lurker here since the early aughts, well before I signed on as a contributor.

[dada]

Fascism isn't stomped out, fascism is the boot. Antifascist defenders protect the humans from being turned into aliens.

Fascism is fought against, not by destroying every fascist, but by destroying every fascist's spirit.

[Marionumber1]

It wouldn't surprise me if parts of the Antifa movement (no indication I can see of it being an actual organization) have been compromised since their inception. COINTELPRO and the history of what happened with Occupy Wall Street make it clear that this is a plausible outcome. And I even raised the possibility myself that there are letter agency provocateurs identifying themselves as Antifa. Even so, however, there is an important distinction between a recently-formed movement with noble goals that may have been partially co-opted and a longtime movement with odious goals that has been joined at the hip with state power for centuries.

Besides, the plausibility of Antifa being compromised isn't the same as evidence that it has actually happened. Maybe I've missed it, and I'd be glad to look at the evidence if it is present, but where is the evidence of Antifa being run by intelligence? Most of what I have seen pushing those claims is unsupported assertions or implications of illicit funding or direction (usually Soros, of course), almost always portraying it as an organized group for good measure. I made very clear that I never accused anyone here on this board of supporting a police state. But when this perception of Antifa that doesn't seem to be backed up very well has led many into doing so, I think the overall authenticity of these claims deserves serious questioning.

Of course the people at the top of the pyramid aren't uniformly identifying themselves as "far right" — though you're not exactly finding much real left-wing sentiment there — but when it comes to the boots on the ground for intelligence operations, those are most frequently the types of operatives employed. It is no surprise, for instance, that we keep seeing elite pedophile rings overlap with Nazi and white supremacist ideology, like with the pedophile cult seemingly linked to JonBenet Ramsey's murder and the 211 crew in Colorado associated with Pat Sullivan's network.

[§ê¢rꆧ]

I had forgotten how entertaining Daniel Hopsicker's writing style is, while still maintaining a fairly high signal-to-noise ratio. It's got that fusion flavor of painstaking research, jaded cynicism, biting wit and wild speculation that attracted me to the old RI blog (long before Jeff Well's fondness for tweeting one-liners that certainly are zingy but to me lack the warbling wonderful subtlety of his 5000-word monstrous screeds).

Here Hopsicker frames his piece as a letter to Hannity, absolute hilarity....

A Short History of Election Fraud By Daniel Hopsicker - November 15, 2020
https://www.madcowprod.com/2020/11/15/s ... ion-fraud/

[....]
The presidential election that year was decided in Ohio, whose votes were counted by Diebold Industries, which just happened to be owned at the time by some ever-so-slightly-too-enthusiastic supporters of President George W. Bush.

It left a bad taste. So, what happened? Well, it’s curious. Maybe just a coincidence? Or maybe it’s just one of those things.

Because a few years later, a previously unknown private company in Toronto—Dominion Voting Systems, that’s your company, right, Sean?—stepped in and bought Sequoia Voting Systems. Incidentally, the company claims to be the oldest American election company, founded in 1898 in Jamestown, New York.

But because this is a “short history” of election fraud, I’ll try not to dwell on the company’s completely sordid past.

But it fills volumes.
But wait! There’s more!

Shortly after the Diebold acquisition, Dominion Voting Systems bought the assets of America’s third largest election company, Diebold in Ohio. George W Bush’s big backers back in 2004.

Wow. Dominion Voting Systems now owned the two dirtiest election companies in America. They’d stepped in the shit big-time. It’s almost like they did it on purpose.

Do you know what that means, Sean?

It means that America’s biggest election company, E S & S, Election Service & Software, of Omaha Nebraska—which has temporarily been keeping its nose clean—is perfectly positioned to step in and play the white knight.

And believe me: E S & S is anything but a white knight.

E S & S is about to pick up Dominion’s biggest customers and juiciest contracts. Then the government—meaning, usually, the individual secretaries of state—will be able to say, “Boy we sure blew that election! But did I clean house? Gimme four more years!”

See, what election services companies do—besides every so often fitfully count votes—is distribute the graft. Executives and managers from the largest American election service companies have been convicted of bribery and suborning public officials in more than a dozen states. There’s not an election company out there that hasn’t been convicted of enough felonies to make the most hardened criminal blush.

But, convicted felons, take heart! While a felony conviction may be enough to disqualify you from voting in places like Florida…Even multiple felony convictions in no way disqualifies you from counting the votes.

Is this a great country, or what!
[....]

Hopsicker's article was just the prosodic antidote I needed to the sunken feeling I had after reading the reminder somewhere upthread that Cynthia Mckinney endorses Donald Trump. I suspect that's a nuanced play to win back some red-pilled eyeballs and earholes from Qanon-nonsense, but I still look back on my support for her in 2008 feeling a lil red-faced and crestfallen. Presently she's got some interesting bits to say about the deep state faction wars afoot - and still worth giving a listening to, in my view - but it's hard for me to give her pass on endorsing Trump after all we've been through....

[Belligerent Savant]

It wouldn't surprise me if parts of the Antifa movement (no indication I can see of it being an actual organization) have been compromised since their inception. COINTELPRO and the history of what happened with Occupy Wall Street make it clear that this is a plausible outcome. And I even raised the possibility myself that there are letter agency provocateurs identifying themselves as Antifa. Even so, however, there is an important distinction between a recently-formed movement with noble goals that may have been partially co-opted and a longtime movement with odious goals that has been joined at the hip with state power for centuries.

Besides, the plausibility of Antifa being compromised isn't the same as evidence that it has actually happened. Maybe I've missed it, and I'd be glad to look at the evidence if it is present, but where is the evidence of Antifa being run by intelligence? Most of what I have seen pushing those claims is unsupported assertions or implications of illicit funding or direction (usually Soros, of course), almost always portraying it as an organized group for good measure. I made very clear that I never accused anyone here on this board of supporting a police state. But when this perception of Antifa that doesn't seem to be backed up very well has led many into doing so, I think the overall authenticity of these claims deserves serious questioning.

Of course the people at the top of the pyramid aren't uniformly identifying themselves as "far right" — though you're not exactly finding much real left-wing sentiment there — but when it comes to the boots on the ground for intelligence operations, those are most frequently the types of operatives employed. It is no surprise, for instance, that we keep seeing elite pedophile rings overlap with Nazi and white supremacist ideology, like with the pedophile cult seemingly linked to JonBenet Ramsey's murder and the 211 crew in Colorado associated with Pat Sullivan's network.

Astute points, Mario. And to be clear, my commentary should not be interpreted as "Antifa [is] being run by intelligence". It's simply that there is enough information available that suggests aspects of the movement have been compromised at least during certain events (and perhaps, helped germinate or shape the outcome of a given event, as you allude above Re: Occupy. This isn't explicit to Antifa only. Same applies to other movements/orgs, such as previously-referenced extreme Right-wing/White Supremacist organizations, though again, this doesn't mean they are both compromised in the same way. Each case/entity is different, with varying historical trajectories; the extent and character of intel op influence can vary). Your first paragraph above covers the gist of it. I've no additional information on this beyond what you or others already have on this topic.

[On Edit: this is speculation based on available information, which -- as a lay citizen -- is minimal. I'm therefore striking it. May as well strike at least half of the output on the internet while we're at it. We'll start with mine]

Any misinterpretation may be due to my writing style and/or limitations in expressing thoughts to syntax (as well as my own subjective experience and observations).

[conniption]

“When fascism comes to America, it will be called antifascism”