US Presidential Election 2020

[Belligerent Savant]

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Here's one of the most famous of what you seem to think is the downtrodden expressing themselves. Pretty amazing it's still up - more illustration of some kind of privilege.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNl0V6KkOrM

...

A glaring, outspoken exemplar for all to see and easily ridicule.

There are terms like agent provocateur and poisoning the well that you already know all too well. Yet this doesn't raise a flag now?

According to reddit [yes, reddit -- limited options these days, alas]:

Jake Angeli (Capitol Building Protestor) works as an actor, his page on Backstage was just taken down

screengrabs were salvaged prior to the attempts to memory hole his prior online profiles:





Careful: any doubting of official narratives will quickly label you a 'QAnon supporter'. Or worse: a CONSPIRACY THEORIST. Dreadful.

Do a Google search for his name now and you'll find plenty of ready-made content courtesy of Wikipedia and Snopes, etc... the usual dutiful soldiers.

He may well be an actor AND also a 'QAnon' supporter, of course. But it's telling the media largely trained their focus on this goon (and his fellow compatriots) rather than the other more earnest (and yes, perhaps gullible) individuals there.

All of this serves to distract, yet again/per usual, the larger underlying issues raised in that Consortium News piece.

[JackRiddler]

You were just talking about how this fascist mob ginned up by their chosen Hitler to go attack the Capitol and overturn an election he lost was "the downtrodden." Where are your fucking downtrodden? They're this guy. Own it.

Is he a provocateur? I've thought that about a lot of people who turned out sincere anyway. He, the bootboys, the whole mob were let in by the coppers and afterward they almost all got to go home. Was it because they were agents, or considered friendlies by the same cops who would have (who HAVE) kettled and beaten and arrested BLM and antiwar protests many blocks away from the Capitol? Do you think asking this is an argument against anything I'm saying? Does it magically excuse the rest of the fascist mob and the cops who greeted them? Who are you trying to make excuses for?

Now lay aside the pedantry and condescension and italicized sophistry and answer it straight:

Who organized and invited a crowd to this event? Who promoted it for weeks? Who spoke at it, in person? Who gave the marching orders to the crowd?

The answer to all of these questions is the same man. That's your downtrodden. That's who you are making excuses for. His army, that's your poor misled misunderstood people. Embrace them wherever you meet.

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[Belligerent Savant]

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I'd wager that most that were there are certainly far more in the 'downtrodden' (read: working/labor classes) category than the comfortable/privileged/ZOOM-meetings demo that certainly did NOT attend this "event".

But beyond that, as I mentioned a number of times before: however misinformed/conditioned these people are, there is clear frustration being expressed (even though some of it may have been staged).

Legitimate frustration. Frustration that will only grow in the coming year, given all we've seen and heard thus far for the plans in play.

What exactly is the argument here? The people are getting f'd more this year than, perhaps, any prior year of the history of this Empire, arguably, and it will get worse, at least over the near term (12 - 24 months), barring larger uprisings. Is this in dispute?

There is good cause to be angry. There is good cause to be frustrated. The primary challenge is that conditioning mechanisms (via social media/internet/media) are very powerful and pervasive, now more than ever before; much of the legitimate frustration will likely be directed towards disingenuous movements, which in turn will provide the Technocrats in power more leverage to pass ever-more draconian laws/mandates/policies.

(This is hardly a robust dissemination. Many scenarios remain possible for 2021)

[stickdog99]

You were just talking about how this fascist mob ginned up by their chosen Hitler to go attack the Capitol and overturn an election he lost was "the downtrodden." Where are your fucking downtrodden? They're this guy. Own it.

Is he a provocateur? I've thought that about a lot of people who turned out sincere anyway. He, the bootboys, the whole mob were let in by the coppers and afterward they almost all got to go home. Was it because they were agents, or considered friendlies by the same cops who would have (who HAVE) kettled and beaten and arrested BLM and antiwar protests many blocks away from the Capitol? Do you think asking this is an argument against anything I'm saying? Does it magically excuse the rest of the fascist mob and the cops who greeted them? Who are you trying to make excuses for?

Now lay aside the pedantry and condescension and italicized sophistry and answer it straight:

Who organized and invited a crowd to this event? Who promoted it for weeks? Who spoke at it, in person? Who gave the marching orders to the crowd?

The answer to all of these questions is the same man. That's your downtrodden. That's who you are making excuses for. His army, that's your poor misled misunderstood people. Embrace them wherever you meet.

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Great. You are legitimately up in arms against these scary yahoos and their scarier fomenter, just as the entire USA was legitimately up in arms against the 19 hijackers and Bin Laden after 9/11. And I truly appreciate your legitimate wariness, anger, and dismay.

But again, I have to ask you, what is to be done other than to embrace a new, more repressive Patriot Act supposedly designed to clamp down on these scary "patriots"? What?

And why MIHOP for /9/11, but not even LIHOP for this sad display of fascist fury signifying nothing?

[JackRiddler]

What has to be done? Trump removed asap, the whole thing investigated, everyone involved in inciting it and planning and facilitating it (the coppers) put on trial. No new laws or agencies necessary for any of that. Otherwise it turns into a Munich Beer Hall Putsch for the successor fascists.

Otherwise, stickdog, you can repeat your false binary all day. It still will never be true and it's insulting. This was a fascist mob rioting to overturn an election result, acting on orders from their leader. I am allowed to observe that truth. It does not follow that I therefore support Biden or new represive measures. My choice is not between supporting Biden or making excuses for fascists.

And there is, of course, no comparison here to 9/11 skepticism. All this happened in public. There is no mystery. The most important part, the actual act, was the incitement delivered by your president during his speech.

BS, you still won't answer the question. Who organized this event of the downtrodden?

And no, sorry, your answer above is once again full of shit. It doesn't matter how badly all people have been treated this year, since that is not why the assembled fascists were there. If the election had gone their way, they'd be partying, correct?

It doesn't matter how ineffective other protests are -- more irrelevant sophistry -- since this was not a protest of anything other than the election result. They were there to overturn Trump's loss in the election, if they could. That was their purpose. It was announced. It was simple. They did exactly what they, and Trump, promised in advance.

If any of the bullshit you're suddenly selling yourself on were true, by the way, their first move should have been to storm the podium from which their hate idol was issuing their orders to them. There's the guiltiest of all persons for the suffering in the land, right in front of them. The one they were there to worship and obey.

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[dada]

You know, I'm working class labor. I'm not downtrodden, though.

[dada]

Anyway the issue on the table is institutional racism. The argument is, is this institutional racism what allowed the mob a pass, to avoid the beat down we've come to expect in situations far more benign than this one? I'd say so.

[Marionumber1]

He may well be an actor AND also a 'QAnon' supporter, of course. But it's telling the media largely trained their focus on this goon (and his fellow compatriots) rather than the other more earnest (and yes, perhaps gullible) individuals there.

What makes you conclude that Jake Angeli couldn't just be as earnest as the rest of the individuals there? I'm certainly far from averse to the possibility that this event was staged for some larger agenda. But is the purported evidence really just that Angeli's career path is an actor, therefore he's likely a crisis actor? No chance that someone could be an actor and also a Q/Trump follower who believes the election should be overturned, without there being any inherent connection between those two facts? Maybe I'm not exactly one to talk because I can believe in some pretty wild stuff (e.g. serial killers as government ops) but the evidence has to be there and I don't exactly see it here yet.

Moreover, even if there is a deeper agenda here, that doesn't take away from the fact that there still was a crowd of fascists called in by Trump and doing the dirty work of whatever plan that was. Operation Gladio was a CIA plot, and it used real Nazis and other right-wing extremists to carry out its acts of violence.

[dada]

"it's telling the media largely trained their focus on this goon"

Oh yes, because wearing a fur hat with horns at the Capitol during a riot isn't enough anymore.

[mentalgongfu2]

What this event did is send a message, which went beyond claims of a stolen election, a message that no one in Congress or the media will openly acknowledge, if they’ve gotten the message at all, namely, that as long as Congress and the rest of the Establishment continue to ignore ordinary Americans’ interests and serve only their own, the anger and the desperation in the land will explode, rendering Wednesday’s events merely a dress rehearsal for what may well turn into a full-blown insurrection. Congress must understand this before it’s too late.

I'm a pretty fucking ordinary American myself. The people involved in this event sure don't represent my interests, and in fact, they support political powers that actively work against my interests. So where does that leave me in this narrative?

[mentalgongfu2]

Rhetorical question, BTW, before any of our resident experts decide to weigh in on how right-wing fascists are actually the downtrodden there to help me out if only I would join their cause.

No 1984 Orwellian Doublethink is required to acknowledge serious systemic problems in our society and governmental structure while also calling bullshit on Trump's antics. What is really sad is that so many of his followers are simply weak-minded individuals who believe whatever he says; that so many are convinced this proven liar is a beacon of truth. This cannot rightfully be blamed on a "liberal biased media." It is in fact the exact opposite. Twenty plus years of Fox news and their talk radio echo chamber has built an impenetrable wall of disinformation fed to an audience that won't ever consider any source that doesn't conform, while convincing followers that they are the free thinkers. It is obscene.

[Spiro C. Thiery]

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I'd wager that most that were there are certainly far more in the 'downtrodden' (read: working/labor classes) category than the comfortable/privileged/ZOOM-meetings demo that certainly did NOT attend this "event".

But beyond that, as I mentioned a number of times before: however misinformed/conditioned these people are, there is clear frustration being expressed (even though some of it may have been staged).

Legitimate frustration. Frustration that will only grow in the coming year, given all we've seen and heard thus far for the plans in play.

What exactly is the argument here? The people are getting f'd more this year than, perhaps, any prior year of the history of this Empire, arguably, and it will get worse, at least over the near term (12 - 24 months), barring larger uprisings. Is this in dispute?

There is good cause to be angry. There is good cause to be frustrated. The primary challenge is that conditioning mechanisms (via social media/internet/media) are very powerful and pervasive, now more than ever before; much of the legitimate frustration will likely be directed towards disingenuous movements, which in turn will provide the Technocrats in power more leverage to pass ever-more draconian laws/mandates/policies.

(This is hardly a robust dissemination. Many scenarios remain possible for 2021)

Nobody's desire to see the full force of the law come down hard on every person who entered the Capitol, along with their chosen leader, is either equivalent to - or supportive of, directly or indirectly - any additional draconian plan to clamp down on everyone, by prior design or as a consequence.

Even if the painted faced patriot is a total deepstate provocateur, hell, especially if he is, he should have every possible charge thrown at him. I mean, you wouldn't want somebody who misappropriates legitimate concerns about the deepstate's activities and thereby renders them laughable along with all his other bullshit get away with it would you? As far as it being a shame that he would not be exposed to the world for what he really is, were he to be other than what he seems to be -- that's a lost cause either way and remains under purview of places like this and other less savory fora.

Regarding the downtrodden among the greater MAMAverse, I do think it is crucial to admit, however, that it is by way of the people represented by surely a shitload of ballots among the 74 million who chose to re-elect this guy that better conditions for the entire spectrum of wage slaves and unemployed would go a long way toward removing the air of legitimacy that these insurgents wrongly believe they have behind them.

[JackRiddler]

BS asks: "What exactly is the argument here?"

Trump announced a rally. The President. Promoted it. Spoke to it. Ordered them to go to the Capitol, "show strength," and suspend the Congressional certification of the election. That is what happened. The President of the country incited a riot at the Congress, so as to overturn the election results. Do you deny this?

This is what you are -- laughably -- trying to disguise as some incidental outbreak of "legitimate frustration" by the "downtrodden."

You are incapable of saying it: Why were they there, at the rally? Who invited them?What was their stated purpose?

Who was there? Republican apparatchiks. Small-town police chiefs. Proud Boy boot-boy brutalos. Confederate flag-wavers. Owners of large, expensive private arsenals. White idiots who think it's possible to storm the Capitol in cosplay outfits, beat up cops, trash offices, take selfies, post them online, and not be arrested. Because, let's face it, for them, being white and right-wing, it was fucking possible. It could have been so. No one else in this society would ever think they had a chance to do that. People who could afford to drop everything and be in Washington FOR TRUMP. Carrying Trump flags. "The downtrodden."

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I'd wager that most that were there are certainly far more in the 'downtrodden' (read: working/labor classes) category than the comfortable/privileged/ZOOM-meetings demo that certainly did NOT attend this "event".

Pure deflection. Vague as shit. That's right, most working people forced to do Zoom meetings may not have attended this TRUMP RALLY. 99.9 percent of everyone did not show up for the planned Trump riot at the Capitol. Whether they're FORCED to work on Zoom or delivering pizzas. And presumably it being a Trump Rally is a factor in that wise decision?

How many times are you going to ignore the question?

You are talking about a Trump Rally.

TRUMP RALLY
TRUMP RALLY
TRUMP RALLY

Trump Rally for the purpose of staging a riot at the Capitol so as to suspend the counting of an election that Trump lost.

Go ahead, ignore that again.

A bit more relevant than your imagined, hated people forced to work on Zoom -- fucking liberals! working on Zoom!! -- who aren't dumb enough to show up for the Trump riot is the Trump family gathering at the White House in front of the TV to watch the Capitol riot they just incited.

That's not notional. That's not your image of some imagined group. That's real. That's what happened.

The Downtrodden!

The presidency. Watching the Congress shut down, on their orders.

You think this is the downtrodden!

Disgusting.

But beyond that, as I mentioned a number of times before: however misinformed/conditioned these people are, there is clear frustration being expressed (even though some of it may have been staged).

Nazis, Proud Boys, nice white folk: legitimate frustration.

Not like those other protesters who outnumbered them 100:1 earlier this year. That was sick shit, Soros, etc. Not legitimate.

Legitimate frustration. Frustration that will only grow in the coming year, given all we've seen and heard thus far for the plans in play.

This justifies showing up for a rally called by the neoliberal pro-billionaire PRESIDENT who hopes to bully the Congress into reversing the election result so that he can cut more taxes.

How fucking incoherent can you get?

Let's go back six months. Did you allow this for the crowds, 100 times bigger, who showed up for Black Lives Matter? Did you?

What exactly is the argument here? The people are getting f'd more this year than,

The Trump mob who showed up to shut down Congress on behalf of Trump's attempt to steal the presidential election are not "the people."

perhaps, any prior year of the history of this Empire, arguably, and it will get worse, at least over the near term (12 - 24 months), barring larger uprisings. Is this in dispute?

Ginning up fascist terror is a well-known way to INOCULATE against legitimate "larger uprisings" by the people against the system.

It is an effort to seize the meaning of protest and rebellion on behalf of fucking fascists who are willing to storm the Capitol building FOR TRUMP.

There is good cause to be angry.

Yes, if you've ever protested for a legitimate cause and met with the typical police response and then see footage of this mob ginned up by their leader, sent off to help steal an election for him, get greeted by columns of police as they walk into the Capitol, certainly, there is good cause to be angry.

much of the legitimate frustration will likely be directed towards disingenuous movements, which in turn will provide the Technocrats in power more leverage to pass ever-more draconian laws/mandates/policies.

Other than the use of legitimate -- no, sorry, "I'm angry because my white supremacist candidate for president lost the election" is not "legitimate" frustration -- you have just described, word for word, exactly the function of the Trump rally you are defending as "downtrodden."

Disingenuous? Certainly. But in a way honest. They wave the Trump flags and the Blue Lives Matter flags and the Confederate flags, so they're not really disguising the fascism. Apparently you're the only one who can't see it.

They gathered to demand MORE repression. The only difference is that the repressive apparatus should be run by their Leader, and be directed against those whom they see as natural inferiors and foreigners. They get liberated from having to wear a mask (supposedly). The billionaires get more subsidies and tax cuts. The police get beefed further and unleashed to impose martial law on urban populations. The Mexicans get locked up in dungeons and shot at the border.

This is what they wanted. This is what they were there to demand. And as you point out, they may get it. They may have just helped it happen, only, again, as an anonymous state thing, and not under their choice of charismatic dictator.

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[JackRiddler]

Nobody's desire to see the full force of the law come down hard on every person who entered the Capitol, along with their chosen leader, is either equivalent to - or supportive of, directly or indirectly - any additional draconian plan to clamp down on everyone, by prior design or as a consequence.

Excellent, to the point.

Just don't forget the coppers who enabled them, every one.

Even if the painted faced patriot is a total deepstate provocateur, hell, especially if he is, he should have every possible charge thrown at him. I mean, you wouldn't want somebody who misappropriates legitimate concerns about the deepstate's activities and thereby renders them laughable along with all his other bullshit get away with it would you? As far as it being a shame that he would not be exposed to the world for what he really is, were he to be other than what he seems to be -- that's a lost cause either way and remains under purview of places like this and other less savory fora.

Self-evident. What's the difference? It's impossible to see it otherwise, unless of course you're engaged in obscuring the fact that this was a Trump rally, called by Trump, with Trump speaking and issuing orders to his people.

Regarding the downtrodden among the greater MAMAverse, I do think it is crucial to admit, however, that it is by way of the people represented by surely a shitload of ballots among the 74 million who chose to re-elect this guy that better conditions for the entire spectrum of wage slaves and unemployed would go a long way toward removing the air of legitimacy that these insurgents wrongly believe they have behind them.

Well of course. But both objectively (regardless of what they think) and in their actual stated demands, the active Trump mobs (a small fraction of the Trump voters) are fighting for WORSE "conditions for the entire spectrum of wage slaves and unemployed."

It is not our job to coddle this. We should tell them the truth: in a society of patsies, they occupy the lowest rung of patsydom. Where almost everyone is persuaded to cheer for their own oppression, these guys are the bleeding edge.

But that only goes so far. Because so many of them (the active Trump mobs) are explicit white supremacists. So it's not just patsydom. They're looking forward to the benefits they believe they will get from being recognized as the superior people. In case we were wondering what is even dumber and worse and more violent than the fake neoliberal meritocracy.

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[Harvey]

Holier than thou at the moment, Jack. Ripe for plucking. (Although I can talk!)

Still, if this has captured your imagination so completely and with everything you know, then imagine how powerful this must be for true believers. Like Covid19, or 9/11, it seems to provoke such intense fear that all manner of exotic possibilities suddenly become frighteningly possible, and even welcome.

Of the two genuine anti-Semites I've met (many more for whom it was clearly less fixed and impermeable) one of them, who I took to be German from his accent, turned out to be an immigrant from the UK, somehow having absorbed the background cultural radiation more heavily than many natives. The other used to frequent the second hand book shop I worked in at the time.

Neither were visibly racist, both were polite, nondescript, thoughtful and one might never know unless having engaged each for a little while in wide ranging conversation. Both sincerely felt that there remains a 'Jewish problem' in need of some 'resolution' which of course remained nebulous, like a pall of soot in the air. Neither appeared (openly at least) to be advocating a return to Nazism in our fairly brief conversations and both seemed supportive of Israel. Neither were flamboyant actors dressed in a Viking costume, and both, far more frightening for that.

On the subject of fascism, while drinking an ice cold coke in a Chevy by the levy, fascism must seem like something very far away indeed. Especially since it only fully revealed itself to you if you were Native American or black or Vietnamese, Guatemalan or Middle Eastern. For much of the twentieth century, I suppose, fascism must have seemed like a distant and alien prospect to many Americans, even as American wheels rolled over tens of millions of actual bodies.

The question has never been 'when will fascism come to America' but 'when will Americans recognise its distinctly American face.'