US Presidential Election 2020

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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:34 am

DrEvil » 12 Jan 2021 08:42 wrote:
I'm just really surprised that people seem more upset about fascists being banned from Twitter than the fact that there's a sizeable fascist movement in the US in the first place. Fascists should be crushed, not coddled, excused or reasoned with.


Exactly.

WTF?

And ... lets be pedantic. The US is already a fascist state with a whole lot of authoritarianism enabling legislation in place, used but to not the fullest of its extent.

Why is it okay when a bunch of authoritarian racist arseholes decide they want all of that power for themselves without any of the (grossly inadequate) checks and balances that are sposed to go with it? They won't hold back given the opportunity.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:16 am

JackRiddler » 12 Jan 2021 01:29 wrote:
Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:10 am wrote:Legitimate frustration. They want their country back.

From the coons and the homos and the jews. Otherwise why the fuck weren't they marching on Wall St? On the people who really stole their country?

There was some cockhead walking around in a camp auschwitz t shirt. Why the fuck didn't someone beat him to death with a fire extinguisher? For having the temerity to walk around wearing that at their frustrated protest. I would have. The cunt.


The "legitimate frustration" alibi for this mob could have worked -- if the first thing they had done was to storm the podium from which the establishment, ruling-class, big-owning mobster who had worked so hard for so long to oppress, defraud, bilk and wage war on every kind of downtrodden in every way, to cut taxes on the rich and cut wages for the working class, was now urging them to go on a suicide mission so as to end any remaining pretense of democracy and install him as dictator.

That's what astonishes me about the various excuses, trivializations and justification narratives being put forth, unfortunately also on this thread. As though the crowd had somehow gathered spontaneously. As though it had no leader. As though he wasn't present and telling them what to do. As though there was no stated ideology. No organizations doing the mobilization. No advance planning, conducted on public online platforms. No announced intents.

It is, of course, exactly as you say. Thank you, Joe.

A separate issue here is the inability to distinguish between (1) an appropriate and necessary response to a fascist coup attempt -- round up and prosecute the leaders, planners and collaborators within the state, and of course those who directly engaged in violence, for the crimes you saw them commit literally live in real time -- and (2) the fact that this event may instead be exploited on behalf of a new, expanded, general state repression agenda that will be directed also, if not mainly, against the left. The latter (2), which is always being imposed and always has to be opposed, does not take away from the absolute urgency of the former (1).

.

I pretty much agree with everything you've typed there.

He is there on record saying he'll march with them to stop the ratification of an election result. Questions Pence's loyalty to him and then during the riot people are calling for Pence to be found and hung.

I'm pretty sure you don't need new laws to charge people with trying to overthrow the government. You don't need new instruments of repression. One of the first things a state does is ensure its own safety.

I can't believe people here are okay with people walking around supporting Nazi Germany's programs of racist and political mass murder while they try and basically overthrow the government It doesn't matter how half arsed it was. Next time, or the time after they will get it right then look out. Nazi camps saw unionists, people with mental and physical disabilities, anarchist, communists and a whole bunch of people who didn't fit in or pissed off the wrong person as well as multiple racial groups as inmates before they died. They'll be looking for the same types this time.

This is an anti fascist board. Everyone who posts here will be identified and if they are in the US within their reach, hunted down.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:19 am

Seeing the world through rose-colored latex.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:58 pm

As it relates to the ongoing discussion, I'll post this here:
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1348042526557663235
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:37 pm

Well, it seems that I am "flooding" as well as arguing at cross-purposes here. My apologies to everyone. I was trying to add and not detract value.

I agree with AOC's last twitter post. I do not agree with her trying to pressure giant Tech oligopolies to deplatform political speech that does not call for violence.

To make a trenchant analogy, I heartily agree that whoever killed the 3,000+ innocent people, brought down the towers, attacked the Pentagon, and shot down Flight 93 should be brought to swift justice. I am not dismissing the event; I am merely questioning its current facade and especially the dangerous reaction it, like 9/11, has generated in everyone I know personally.

I guess I just assume that it goes without saying that I live in deathly fear of all the well-armed racist fascists that surround me because I would be among the first intellectual loudmouths they executed or shipped off to the concentration camp. Thus, I feel that it is imperative to discover and hold responsible exactly who planned this specific event, who organized this specific event, who executed this specific event, and who enabled this specific event (on exactly whose orders). But I do not agree that a Global War on Domestic Protestors is a justifiable or helpful response. And I am glad that we are all in agreement on this final point.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby dada » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:17 pm

Reproduction of the manufacturing process is a continuous reinvention, in the sense of both reinventing the wheel, and squaring the circle. The square wheel may seem like a poor design choice, but it is not for the road, it's for flying cars. The round wheel needs roads or relatively flat terrain. The square wheel makes the road in front of you as you drive.

The square wheel functions as wheel and engine. As anti-gravity suspensor, it creates the anti-gravity field and stream which it travels upon. As the anti-gravity cycles, friction with the gravity beyond it generates electrical output, which is used to charge the car. Not a perfect perpetual motion machine, as there is no gravity to work against in space. But for planetary excursions, it serves the purpose very well.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby DrEvil » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:39 pm

Saw this doing the rounds and now I can't get it out of my head:

If you’re a Nazi and you’re fired it’s your fault! *clap clap*

If you’re a Nazi and you’re fired it’s your fault! *clap clap*

When you’re spotted in the mob
And you lose your fucking job

If you’re a Nazi and you’re fired it’s your fault! *clap clap*


If you’re a fascist and you’re maced that’s on you! *clap clap*

If you’re a fascist and you’re maced that’s on you! *clap clap*

When you try to stage a coup
But you haven’t got a clue

If you’re a fascist and you’re maced that’s on you! *clap clap*
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:04 am

Not much of a religious person myself, but considering the connection between Trump, Republicans and the evangelical movement, some may find this perspective interesting.

https://www.russellmoore.com/2021/01/11/the-roman-road-from-insurrection/


The Roman Road from Insurrection
January 11, 2021
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This week we watched an insurrection of domestic terrorists, incited and fomented by the President of the United States. We saw the attack on our Capitol, the desecrating of the seat of our democracy, the harming of innocent human lives, and the murdering of a Capitol Police officer. We saw a mob threatening to lynch the Vice President of the United States and Members of Congress—all in an attempt to stop a constitutional process and to overturn an election by the American people.

Part of me hesitates to address this at all. That’s because my views are well known and haven’t changed. But that’s also because I don’t at all want to be heard as saying, “I told you so.” That’s not for me to say, and I’ll leave whatever judgments are to be made to others. In any case, I know that I’ve been wrong about many things in my life—and might even do a whole series here on “Stuff I Was Wrong About.” But for now, I will simply speak honestly about these things as I see them.

Throughout all these years, I held out the possibility that maybe I am crazy, that I am completely unable to see what others were seeing. And all of this was even more confusing because many of the people who would say boldly in public how great this leader was, would then say, privately, the exact opposite. Behind closed doors, they said he was mentally unstable. That he was “an immoral man worse than LBJ ever dreamed about being.”

But, again, I told my wife in 2017: I am almost all alone here. I am going to pray that my critics are right—and that I am just incapable of seeing what they see. “I’m voting for a platform, not a person; an administration, not an individual,” people would tell me. I could not do that—in good conscience—but my attitude was, and is, “Who am I to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls” (Rom. 14:4). We could disagree on all that, and still bear with one another—knowing that all would be sorted out in God’s timing.

This is a different situation from all of that. This is not about politics. This is about our country, about the rule of law, and about the sanctity of human life. The President invited mobs to Washington—promising a “wild” time—and told them to march to the Capitol. Despite the fact that there was not one thing that Vice President Pence could have lawfully done, the President called him a coward, and whipped up crowds against him who, many of them, then chanted “Hang Mike Pence!” while constructing gallows on the Capitol grounds. An American flag was thrown down and replaced with a Trump flag, while another insurrectionist paraded a Confederate flag through the Capitol. Police officers were attacked. Congressional leaders hid while the doors buckled from mobs seeking to attack them. People are dead. The Capitol is ransacked. Administration officials are resigning in protest.

If you read nothing else, read this: If you can defend this, you can defend anything. If you can wave this away with “well, what about…” or by changing the subject to a private platform removing an account inciting violence as “Orwellian,” then where, at long last, is your limit?

The country must turn to our Constitution, to the founding principles of this nation, in order to address this. And, as Christians, we must be the people who are shaped and formed by the Word of God. As a teenager in a Southern Baptist church, I was taught to evangelize using what was called “the Roman Road.” What that meant was that, while all Scripture is profitable and able to be used to share the gospel, one could guide someone through the plan of salvation using verses all found in the Book of Romans. Rather than flipping all over the canon, one could just turn pages in this one book and show people God’s love, God’s judgment, the necessity of the cross, the power of the resurrection, the meaning of faith and repentance, how to live in the Spirit, etc.

This is not a gospel presentation, but I would suggest that, while the entire Bible speaks to the roots of this crisis, we can, just from the Book of Romans, see where we are to go from here. Here are some thoughts.
Truth Cannot Be Brought About by Lying

From the very onset of Paul’s letter, he wrote about God’s holy judgment on “deceit” and ruthlessness. That includes those who know “God’s decree” on sin but nonetheless not only do such sins themselves but who “give approval to those who practice them” (Rom. 1:32). In establishing the sin that God judges, Paul wrote of those who “use their tongues to deceive” as well as those whose “feet are swift to shed blood” (Rom. 3:13-15).

It is not true—and it never was true—that this election was stolen. That’s why such a charge was never even made in any court of law, where perjury penalties would hold, but only in social media streams and demagogic rallies. No matter what one wanted to happen in the election, as the saying goes, “facts don’t care about your feelings.” Joe Biden was elected and, as Mitch McConnell said on Wednesday, it was not particularly close. The crowds attacking the Capitol were not “antifa plants”—we know, in many cases, their names and faces and backstories.

Some will argue that any Democratic president will mean the loss of religious liberty forever, the inability to ever again protect the lives of the unborn, or some other outcome. Let’s just assume for a minute that such were true—it would still not justify lying about who won the election “by a landslide” or by lying about whether Congress could just set aside electors or by lying about whether the Vice President was a part of a conspiracy to defraud the American people by refusing to do what the Constitution clearly forbids him to do.

Paul wrote: “Let God be true though every one were a liar” (Rom. 3:4). And to those who suggest that “if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory why am I still being condemned as a sinner?” Paul charged them with “slander” and said that “their condemnation is just” (Rom. 3:8).

He warned about those who would serve “their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery” deceive “the hearts of the naïve” (Rom. 16:18).

The truth is that many of the people making these claims knew they were false, and thought that some outcome—raising money, establishing their political futures, assuaging their egos—would make those lies alright.

God forbid.
Good Cannot Be Brought About by Committing Evil

Along with the slander of lying for God’s glory, Paul quoted those who would say, “Let us do evil that good may come” (Rom. 3:8). Later he tells us that vengeance cannot bring about good because of the command: “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (Rom. 12:21).

Murder is wrong. Insurrection is wrong. Rioting is wrong. Terrorism is wrong. If someone says in response to the brutal attacks on innocent people on September 11, 2001, “Yes, but try to understand the desperation of the people of Afghanistan,” they are wrong to do so. If someone says, “Yes, abortion takes a human life, but poverty is worse,” they are wrong. And if someone says—when confronted with a violent insurrection on the nation’s Capitol, “Yes, but what about….” they are wrong.

You cannot stand for “law and order” while waving away lawlessness. You cannot champion the pro-life cause while waving away murder. You cannot support police by the murder of police officers. You cannot support religious liberty by trashing the United States Constitution.

Beyond that, good policy cannot absolve bad character. Character matters. Integrity matters. That is not just about “manners” or “self-righteousness” or “elitism” or “aesthetics,” but the ethics of Christ.

Evil means are justified by no ends. Thus, the Scriptures tell us, “Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good” (Rom. 12:9).
Justice Demands Accountability

Christians have sometimes disagreed about the meaning of Romans 13, but there is no interpretation of Romans 13 that would support murderous and violent insurrection, or the inciting of the same. The powers-that-be, Paul wrote, are “instituted by God,” and are to operate within limits: “For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad” (Rom. 13:4), and the sword is to be exercised—not by vigilante mobs—but by those legitimate authorities and only against “the wrongdoer” (Rom. 13:4).

The governing authorities do not have a choice as to whether or not to hold people accountable for inciting and carrying out insurrection. To do otherwise would be to cease to be a just society, and to empower future evildoers to do the same. Everyone who attacked our Capitol or planned or directed such a storming of the Capitol, should be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You will hear people saying that for the sake of “unity” we should quietly put such things away. God forbid. The unity of the people cannot come with a lack of accountability. The police do not have the option to ignore these mobs. The Congress does not have the option to ignore their constitutional obligations on high crimes and misdemeanors. The Vice President and the Cabinet cannot put aside questions of their responsibilities for fear of their futures. To hope that this all will just quietly go away and resolve itself is to incite future terrorists and is to do exactly what the Bible forbids—to “justify the wicked and to condemn the righteous” (Prov. 17:15).

Unity demands accountability. Justice demands accountability. Without such, all we are left with is “lawlessness leading to more lawlessness” (Rom. 6:19).

You don’t have to agree with me. I might be wrong. I don’t speak for anyone else, only myself. But you deserve to hear from me what I honestly think. If I were the President, I would resign. If I were the Vice President, I would assemble the cabinet in accordance with the 25th Amendment. If I were a Member of Congress, I would vote to impeach. And if I were a United States senator, I would vote to convict. And I would be willing, if necessary, to lose my seat to do so. As a matter of fact, I am willing, if necessary, to lose this seat.

Again, I might be wrong. But, if so, propose what can be done to make sure that justice is done and that this never happens to our country again.

Is that easy? No. Will people say you’re a “closet liberal.” Yes. Will people threaten “psychological warfare” or conduct endless investigations against you? Maybe. Will people send threats to kill you and your family or to destroy your reputation and ministry? Perhaps.

You can survive all that. Trust me.
Integrity Demands Consistency

Paul wrote, “Those of you who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?” (Rom. 2:21-22). The lack of consistency is a lack of integrity, he warned, and that has consequences not just for one’s own conscience. “For, as it is written, ‘The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you’” (Rom. 2:24).

People are watching. People are overhearing. Some of them are your children.

The sight of “Jesus Saves” and “God Bless America” signs by those violently storming the Capitol is about more than just inconsistency. It is about a picture of Jesus Christ and of his gospel that is satanic. The mixing of the Christian religion with crazed and counter-biblical cults such as Q-Anon is telling the outside world that this is what the gospel is. That’s a lie, and it is blasphemous against a holy God.

Look around us, five years into this experiment. Every family I know is divided over this personality. Every church I know is too. Friendships are broken, for almost everyone I know. And, most importantly, every survey shows that the church is hemorrhaging the next generation because they believe that evangelicalism is a means to an end to this political movement. You may say, “Well, we can’t make decisions based on what people want”: true. If I were speaking every week to people who are leaving because they reject the Trinity or the Incarnation or the bodily resurrection or sexual morality or whatever, I would agree with you.

But if people are walking away not because we believe too much for them, but because they don’t think we believe what we say we believe, what then? How can the witness of the church be rebuilt? What are the consequences? A start—a small but necessary start—is for the church to say, clearly, conspiracy theories and insurrections and riots and murders and incitement are out of step with the Word of God and we will not—not one of us—spend one second hemming or hawing about that.

If President Obama tried to overturn an election, and incited his supporters to storm the Capitol, to desecrate the flag, to kill innocent people and to terrorize many others with pipe bombs and hand-ties and weapons, every evangelical Christian would be, rightly, denouncing such with the strongest possible terms (and many would be suggesting that we were in the reign of the Antichrist), and every one of us knows that is true.

If the world rejects us because of Christ and him crucified, so much the worse for the world. If the world rejects us because they think Christ is just a mascot for what we would already be supporting or doing even if Jesus were still dead, then God have mercy on us.

“Let us sin all the more that grace may abound” or “Let us lie our way into the truth” or “Let us riot our way to peace” or “Let us murder our way to life”—these things are all completely contradicted by the words of our Bible, by our gospel. Does our mission field know that? If not, is it our fault?
Hope Starts in Lament

The situation in this country looks bleak. We have been here before. The church at Rome to which Paul wrote would see the empire fall a few centuries later. At the time, they seemed pinned against the wall by Caesar and the imperial cult. For many, God seemed to be invisible in the promises he had made to Israel. And yet, Paul presented a gospel in which we “rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and that endurance produces character, and that character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame” (Rom. 5:3-5).

God is not unfaithful to his purposes, Paul wrote, but has always worked through a remnant (Rom. 11). Our hope of salvation starts with repentance, grieving over our own sins (Rom. 6:20-23). And our hope of the future glory in which we will share starts with our groaning by the Spirit, with the creation around us, that this is not the way it is supposed to be (Rom. 8:19-27).

The times look dark, and we are tempted to despair. But, in Christ, we are “more than conquerors” because nothing—not “rulers nor things present nor things to come, nor powers” can ever “separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:37-39).
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:51 am

And the whitewashing of Pence begins. I'll post it here for the record, until RI gets erased at least, but it pains me to do so.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/politics/mike-pence-trump.html

Pence Reached His Limit With Trump. It Wasn’t Pretty.

After four years of tongue-biting silence that critics say enabled the president’s worst instincts, the vice president would not yield to the pressure and name-calling from his boss.

By Peter Baker, Maggie Haberman and Annie Karni

Jan. 12, 2021

WASHINGTON — For Vice President Mike Pence, the moment of truth had arrived. After three years and 11 months of navigating the treacherous waters of President Trump’s ego, after all the tongue-biting, pride-swallowing moments where he employed strategic silence or florid flattery to stay in his boss’s good graces, there he was being cursed by the president.

Mr. Trump was enraged that Mr. Pence was refusing to try to overturn the election. In a series of meetings, the president had pressed relentlessly, alternately cajoling and browbeating him. Finally, just before Mr. Pence headed to the Capitol to oversee the electoral vote count last Wednesday, Mr. Trump called the vice president’s residence to push one last time.

“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”

The blowup between the nation’s two highest elected officials then played out in dramatic fashion as the president publicly excoriated the vice president at an incendiary rally and sent agitated supporters to the Capitol where they stormed the building — some of them chanting “Hang Mike Pence.”

It was an extraordinary rupture of a partnership that had survived too many challenges to count.

The loyal lieutenant who had almost never diverged from the president, who had finessed every other possible fracture, finally came to a decision point he could not avoid. He would uphold the election despite the president and despite the mob. And he would pay the price with the political base he once hoped to harness for his own run for the White House.

“Pence had a choice between his constitutional duty and his political future, and he did the right thing,” said John Yoo, a legal scholar consulted by Mr. Pence’s office. “I think he was the man of the hour in many ways — for both Democrats and Republicans. He did his duty even though he must have known, when he did it, that that probably meant he could never become president.”

Former Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona, one of Mr. Trump’s most outspoken Republican critics and a longtime friend of Mr. Pence before they drifted apart over the president, said he was relieved the vice president had finally taken a stand.

“There were many points where I wished he would have separated, spoke out, but I’m glad he did it when he did,” Mr. Flake said. “I wish he would have done it earlier, but I’m sure grateful he did it now. And I knew he would.”


Not everyone gave Mr. Pence much credit, arguing that he should hardly be lionized for following the Constitution and maintaining that his deference to the president for nearly four years enabled Mr. Trump’s assault on democracy in the first place.

“I’m glad he didn’t break the law, but it’s kind of hard to call somebody courageous for choosing not to help overthrow our democratic system of government,” said Representative Tom Malinowski, Democrat of New Jersey. “He’s got to understand that the man he’s been working for and defending loyally is almost single-handedly responsible for creating a movement in this country that wants to hang Mike Pence.”
On Politics with Lisa Lerer: A guiding hand through the political news cycle, telling you what you really need to know.

The rift between Mr. Trump and Mr. Pence has dominated their final days in office — not least because the vice president has the power under the 25th Amendment to remove the president from office with support of the cabinet. The House voted on Tuesday demanding that Mr. Pence take such action or else it would impeach Mr. Trump.

Mr. Pence sent a letter to Speaker Nancy Pelosi late Tuesday refusing to act. But Mr. Trump has been nervous enough about it that he finally broke five days of the cold shoulder to invite his vice president to the Oval Office on Monday night to smooth over their split. The official description of the hourlong conversation was “good”; the unofficial description was “nonsubstantive” and “stilted.”

The clash is the third time in 20 years that a departing president and vice president came to conflict in their last days. After Vice President Al Gore lost his presidential campaign in 2000, he had a bitter fight with President Bill Clinton in the Oval Office over who was to blame. Eight years later, just days before leaving office, Vice President Dick Cheney castigated President George W. Bush for refusing to pardon I. Lewis Libby Jr., the vice president’s former chief of staff, for perjury in the C.I.A. leak case.

Mr. Trump came into office with no real understanding of how his predecessors had handled relationships with their running mates. In the early days, when it became clear that there would be no organizational chart or formal decision-making process, Mr. Pence made himself a regular presence in the Oval Office, simply showing up with no agenda, often walking into a policy discussion for which he had received no briefing materials.

He arrived in the West Wing each morning, received an update about when the president was coming down from the residence and then simply stationed himself in the Oval Office for most of the day. He was almost never formally invited to anything and his name was rarely on official meeting manifests. But he was almost always around.

Calm and unflappable, Mr. Pence took on the role of confidant for cabinet secretaries and other officials fearing Mr. Trump’s ire, advising how to broach uncomfortable topics with the president without triggering him.

Not angering Mr. Trump “was a key objective of his,” observed David J. Shulkin, the former secretary of veterans affairs. “He tried very hard to straddle a very tough line.” But that meant Mr. Pence’s own views were often opaque.

“Were the policies and the statements being put out, were they ones that he completely agreed with?” Dr. Shulkin asked. “Or was it his strategy that it is better to be in the room, it is better to be a trusted party to help moderate some of those strategies and the way to do that is not to publicly disagree? I think that was a really hard one to figure out, exactly where he stood.”

Mr. Pence ultimately discovered that loyalty to Mr. Trump only matters until it does not. Tension between the two had grown in recent months as the president railed privately about Mr. Pence. The vice president’s allies believed Mr. Trump was stirred up in part by Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, who told him that Pence aides were leaking to reporters. That helped create a toxic atmosphere between the two offices even before Election Day.

When Mr. Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results were rejected at every turn by state officials and judges, Mr. Trump was told, incorrectly, that the vice president could stop the final validation of the election of President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. in his role as president of the Senate presiding over the Electoral College count.

Mr. Pence’s counsel, Greg Jacob, researched the matter and concluded the vice president had no such authority. Prodded by Rudolph W. Giuliani and Jenna Ellis, two of his lawyers, Mr. Trump kept pressing.

Mr. Pence’s office solicited more constitutional opinions, including from Mr. Yoo, a prominent conservative at the University of California at Berkeley who served in Mr. Bush’s administration.

In the Oval Office last week, the day before the vote, Mr. Trump pushed Mr. Pence in a string of encounters, including one meeting that lasted at least an hour. John Eastman, a conservative constitutional scholar at Chapman University, was in the office and argued to Mr. Pence that he did have the power to act.

The next morning, hours before the vote, Richard Cullen, Mr. Pence’s personal lawyer, called J. Michael Luttig, a former appeals court judge revered by conservatives — and for whom Mr. Eastman had once clerked. Mr. Luttig agreed to quickly write up his opinion that the vice president had no power to change the outcome, then posted it on Twitter.

Within minutes, Mr. Pence’s staff incorporated Mr. Luttig’s reasoning, citing him by name, into a letter announcing the vice president’s decision not to try to block electors. Reached on Tuesday, Mr. Luttig said it was “the highest honor of my life” to play a role in preserving the Constitution.

After the angry call cursing Mr. Pence, Mr. Trump riled up supporters at the rally against his own vice president, saying, “I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to.”

“He set Mike Pence up that day by putting it on his shoulders,” said Ryan Streeter, an adviser to Mr. Pence when he was the governor of Indiana. “That’s a pretty unprecedented thing in American politics. For a president to throw his own vice president under the bus like that and to encourage his supporters to take him on is something just unconscionable in my mind.”

Mr. Pence was already in his motorcade to the Capitol by that point. When the mob burst into the building, Secret Service agents evacuated him and his wife and children, first to his office off the floor and later to the basement. His agents urged him to leave the building, but he refused to abandon the Capitol. From there, he spoke with congressional leaders, the defense secretary and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff — but not the president.

A Republican senator later said he had never seen Mr. Pence so angry, feeling betrayed by a president for whom he had done so much. To Mr. Trump, one adviser said, the vice president had entered “Sessions territory,” referring to Jeff Sessions, the attorney general who was tortured by the president before being fired. (A vice president cannot be dismissed by a president.)

On Thursday, the day after the siege, Mr. Pence stayed away from the White House, avoiding Mr. Trump. The next day, he went in, but spent most of the day at the Eisenhower Executive Office Building next door, where he held a farewell party for his staff.

But aides said Mr. Pence did not want to become a long-term nemesis of a vindictive president, and by Monday he was back in the West Wing.

Unlike Mr. Trump, Mr. Pence plans to attend Mr. Biden’s inauguration, then expects to divide time between Washington and Indiana, possibly starting a leadership political committee, writing a book and campaigning for congressional Republicans.

But no matter what comes next, he will always be remembered for one moment. “We’re very lucky that the vice president isn’t a maniac,” said Joe Grogan, Mr. Trump’s domestic policy adviser until last year. “In many ways, I think it vindicates the decision of Mike Pence to hang in there this long.”
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:04 am

.
[Yes, I said i'd stop posting in this thread. But since this particular info hasn't been raised yet, i am sharing it here as it offers an added breadcrumb surrounding certain aspects of this event. Caveat Lector, always]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-new ... insurgence


Utah activist claims he was just documenting US Capitol insurgence

A Utah resident who was among those who breached the US Capitol Wednesday says he was there solely to document the event.

John Sullivan, a civil rights activist, claims he attended the protest and broke into the Capitol along with Trump supporters only as a way to give a true view of what was occurring.

"I was there to record," said Sullivan in a video posted to Periscope Friday. "I was there to let people see that situation in the best possible way."

Sullivan is the founder of Insurgence USA, an activist group formed after the killing of George Floyd in the summer of 2020.

Sullivan said he was near Ashli Babbitt when she was shot and killed in the Capitol building, but being able to show her death was why he was in DC.

"How would you have a clear vision of this woman getting shot by this officer that was in there and she was dying?" asks Sullivan in the video. "What proof or evidence, other than body cam video that can be easily deleted."

"This is what everyone needed to see."

Sullivan goes on to say his documentation disproves those who claim Antifa members dressed as Trump supporters were actually the ones who invaded the building.

"In my footage, clear as day, Antifa is not out there doing that." said Sullivan, who added that he is not a member of Antifa.

In June, Sullivan was arrested for organizing a protest in Provo where a person was shot.



AND:
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/1/7/2 ... r-sullivan


John Sullivan claims he entered Capitol during rally only to document event, but his own video shows him encouraging others as they rioted


A Utah activist who faces criminal charges in connection with a Provo protest he organized in June claims he attended a pro-Trump rally that turned into a violent attack on the U.S. Capitol in order to see “the truth” about the protests for himself and the organization he represents.

Sullivan, who is the founder of Insurgence USA, a social justice group that calls itself anti-fascist and protests police brutality, was detained by Washington police for about an hour and a half Thursday night, a day after he talked to local and national media about what he witnessed Wednesday.

some of the 40-minute video he posted to his social media sites contradicts his assertion that he and another woman were “only filming” the actions and not participating as he can be heard in the video encouraging people to join them as they push their way through police barricades.

Just after people broke into the building, Sullivan — wearing a gas mask and wielding an iPhone on a stabilizing stick — and a woman who said Wednesday that she was making a documentary on Sullivan, are on the first porch area outside the entrance looking back over the throngs of people around the Capitol. They can be heard encouraging people to climb the wall, saying, “Come on. Let’s go!”

Others, wearing Trump gear and carrying various flags, are shouting the same and helping people over the stone or marble railing around the section of Capitol steps.

He can be heard saying, “We’re all part of this (expletive) history” as they enter the rotunda around 15 minutes in, and he says to his companion, “2021! (expletive) This is insanity. I am shook. What is this? What is this painting, you know? King (expletive) bro (expletive)!”

He exchanges social media information with another man, and then he and the filmmaker talk about what they’re witnessing.

“Is this not going to be the best film you’ve ever made in your life?” he says. “Dude, I was trying to tell you. I couldn’t say much.”

On Friday, Sullivan insisted that he didn’t encourage violence or vandalism.

When asked about some of the things he said during the 40-minute video, he said, “When you’re in a massive crowd like that, you have to blend in.”

The riot was not an impromptu act, Sullivan said.

“As far as them storming the Capitol, I knew that was going to happen,” he said. “I’m on chats that are underground that are sending out flyers that are just like, ‘Storm all Capitols on the 6th.’ It wasn’t anything that was secret. It was something that was out there ... and they did it.”

After making his way inside the Capitol during the riot, Sullivan said he witnessed the shooting death of protester Ashli Babbitt, and the Twitter account for Insurgence USA retweeted video from someone with Sullivan that shows the shooting and the aftermath.

...


And here he is on CNN. Quite a bit of media/news content dedicated to this person, eh?

Any 'patriot'/Trumpsters receive such air time? I wouldn't know offhand as i don't watch network news.



He was just "documenting".

Note, at least at one point in the clip, Anderson Cooper refers to the gathering as 'protesters' and then quickly corrects himself and subsequently calls them 'rioters'.

Lastly: I viewed the video clip of the shooting -- the version reportedly recorded by the person filming with Sullivan. The angle does not make clear if the shooter was indeed an officer. More to the point, audio did NOT pick up any warning by the shooter before the shot was fired, but others nearby yelled 'gun!' several times. Anyone else happen across the video?

Has the 'officer' been ID'd yet?
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby kelley » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:16 am

This is hopefully the last wearying spectacle staged by a cynical, corrupt, criminal administration. A failed coup by other means? It appears so, again pushing media and message further towards an utterly inchoate mess of opinion, half-truths, and outright lies.

Arguing what constitutes ‘reality’ in this case is tedious, but perhaps helpful, if for one final time. Aside from whatever is discernibly based in fact, one thing is perhaps certain. Donald Trump may be the last major political figure whose worldview of what is and isn’t will have been shaped by television, his limited grasp of social media notwithstanding. Twitter was but a bastard device of bullhorn and dog whistle for him. Numbers based on televised fictions were the foundation of Trump's nefarious platform, as it were. This has again become the case by default since various suspensions damaged his public voice. These were woefully late in coming. Tech companies must be held accountable, and their roles seriously addressed. If left unregulated, our digital commons will quickly become the equivalent of a superfund site, if it indeed isn't already.

Looking at the breach of the Capitol itself, in terms not of what was ‘real’ but what is actual, shows how flimsily staged the events were. It’s inaccurate to say no security was in place, but for all intents, there wasn’t any. This is the most obviously glaring hole in the narrative, at least to my eyes, as to what was allowed to happen once Trump exhorted his followers to march on the building. Given the jurisdiction of Washington DC— it’s not a state— this dangerous lack of protection, or show of force, was undoubtedly based upon executive decision at the federal level. At the very least, it implicates Trump in yet another act of complete negligence which brought deadly results.

Prior to and immediately following the 2016 election, there was a thread here titled “Donald Trump is Seriously Dangerous”, or similar. It was therein that the question of factions was raised. IMO, this has been the primary question which still must be asked during this last week of Trump’s presidency. Cui Bono? It’s telling that ten former Defense secretaries lined up in unison to strongly warn against military involvement should Trump choose (Has chosen? Will choose? It depends somewhat on whether it’s agreed today is 13 January 2021, or 44 December 2020) to stage a seizure of power. This hasn’t yet happened, but “seizure” is an apt term to describe the Presidential state of mind as Inauguration Day draws closer. Defined by a convincing grasp of reality, and the ability to act accordingly, Trump is clearly insane. He should be in a straitjacket. He’s not. Who continues to enable this behavior? I mean, Sheldon Edelson is dead, so it’s not him any longer. Nonetheless, factions continue to protect Trump, even as his "coup" operated independently of armed state power. This has been contrary to the case elsewhere around the world, where armies usually act hand in glove with the toppling of free and open governments.

This “coup” has been so transparently a fiction from the start that it’s difficult to take seriously. That is likely the danger, and what those who benefit are no doubt counting on. The legislature should be damned for its waffling, which is something else made clear as well. Trump will soon be gone, but Americans are stuck with a fascist oligarchy keen on manipulating mass sentiment for its own ends. How this will change is beyond my imagination, and will take longer than anyone can say.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby thrulookingglass » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:52 pm

"The country must turn to our Constitution, to the founding principles of this nation, in order to address this." The native Americans didn't receive much protection from that document nor those that swore to abide by its law.

"Good cannot be brought about by committing evil" Echoes MLK Jr's seven principles of peaceful protest.

Sayeth the followers of the world drowner!

Sayeth the followers of the world drowner!

How much violence against homosexuals, women, non-deists was born from faith in a fixed book rather than each other?

Off topic, I know. Though the morality of world leaders matter. Trump is not intelligent by any broad definition of the word. Best quote I heard lately was Trump was a criminal before he entered office and he's still a criminal in leaving.

Of, for, and by the people requires that the citizenry are engaged in the political process, have a qualified education regarding the function of said government, and accurately perceive the ethos their elected officials venerate.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:53 pm

https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-the ... r?ref=home

...

Thus was born an infiltration operation called WHITE HATE. At this point in history, the FBI was functionally lawless, so there was no need to expand the FBI’s powers, only its focus. But WHITE HATE was not the full name of the operation. It was known as COINTELPRO-WHITE HATE. “It involved all the techniques developed in the FBI’s long-running attack on the Left,” Weiner writes. Informants, bribes, break-ins and wiretaps proved so successful that an agent told Weiner, “There would be a Klan meeting with ten people there, and six of them would be reporting back the next day.” It produced sufficient arrests that a year later, Johnson told Hoover, one of the premier enemies of the Constitution in the 20th century, “I sure am proud of what you’ve done on this civil rights thing, and I think history will so show it.”

WHITE HATE was hardly the first COINTELPRO operation—that came in 1956, against the Communist Party U.S.A. It was also COINTELPRO’s exception, not its rule. For all the FBI’s work against the Klan, all Hoover did was devote a small aspect of his repressive apparatus to appease Johnson.

Even as WHITE HATE unfolded, Hoover’s intelligence chief, Bill Sullivan, ran a COINTELPRO operation against Martin Luther King Jr. Sullivan developed the infamous sexual blackmail campaign that urged King to take “the one way out for you”—suicide—before “your filthy, abnormal fraudulent self is bared to the nation.” COINTELPRO more typically targeted movements for nonwhite liberation and their “communist” allies; by 1968, 41 of the FBI’s 56 field offices had COINTELPRO operations against the Black Panthers underway. An FBI memo from March 1968 outlined an objective of dividing Black organizations, preventing the emergence of what it called a “messiah” who could “unify and electrify” the movement and to deny such movements “respectability.”

The Church Commission of the 1970s, which exposed decades of abuses of the security state during the Cold War, explained the difference between WHITE HATE and the rest of COINTELPRO. WHITE HATE “was very precisely targeted; each of the other programs spread to a number of groups which do not appear to fall within any clear parameters," it found. WHITE HATE “used comparatively few techniques which carried a risk of serious physical, emotional, or economic damage to the targets,” whereas the operations against Black organizations “used such techniques extensively.” In a judgment that anticipated the War on Terror by 25 years, the commission observed: “Like the progression in targeting, the use of dangerous, degrading, or blatantly unconstitutional techniques also appears to have become less restrained with each subsequent program.”

That sounds like a prologue for what a post-January 6 domestic War on Terror would be. Many of the very people who expanded domestic terror authorities would empower were complicit in the insurrection. So far, up to 15 Capitol Police officers are under investigation for apparent complicity in the riot, with two suspended, CNN reported. DHS, that creation of the post-September 11 War on Terror, is leaderless after the Monday night departure of an acting secretary who a federal judge ruled was in his job illegally, and looks AWOL. Like the Justice Department, which was in a reactive posture on Jan. 6, DHS’ passivity regarding the insurrection stands in unignorable contrast to its summertime enthusiasm for detaining, interrogating, brutalizing, and even shooting Black and left-wing demonstrators. An apparently chastened FBI is currently arresting participants in the insurrection—as it faces difficult questions about why a senior bureau leader inaccurately said on Friday there was no advance warning on the violence—some of whom were off-duty police, servicemembers and veterans. Even the Secret Service is investigating an officer who cheered on the insurrection, falsely asserting that antifa was behind the violence.

...

“Giving federal agencies more power to spy on Americans and bigger budgets didn’t stop this attack, because the agencies decided right-wing violence wasn’t a real threat. Until there is an honest reckoning with how politicians and some in law-enforcement are willing to tolerate and even stoke far-right anger, violent criminals will continue to believe they can act with impunity,” Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), told The Daily Beast. “That’s why I called on Senators Cruz and Hawley to resign, and for Trump to be removed as soon as possible. Accountability has to start at the top.”

Reports are already circulating that further violence is in the planning stages. Biden’s inauguration will occur amidst a phalanx of National Guardsmen. A new wave of attacks is likely to intensify pressures on Democratic politicians for new domestic terrorism authorities. And amidst all this, a Black Muslim congresswoman is attempting to save American democracy, including the freedom of people who want her deported, or worse.

“We must respect everyone’s rights. We must respect everyone’s essential dignity. This is when we need restorative justice, more than ever,” said Rep. Omar. “The answer is not more laws expanding the surveillance and security state. We already have laws to go after violent and dangerous actors. Instead, we must stay rooted in our love of justice and of human rights and of civil liberties as we respond.”
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Harvey » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:06 am

Evidence mounts of special forces involvement and or psy-ops? https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/13 ... 8501875718
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby norton ash » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 pm

^^^^ Tweet not available. Shit.
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