Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:49 am

JackRiddler » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:18 pm wrote: To be truthful, I want to find a way to get a majority on board, not to solidify it in the opposite direction. Does that make me soft on technofascism?


allowing for baseless ad hominem commentary, unchecked, will not get us any closer to consensus.

I'm far from an advocate for more moderation. But this here is a valid point:

Harvey » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:46 pm wrote:I'll leave you to discuss the finer points of smearing an opponent with baseless accusations of anti-Semitism.



In any event, consensus here has little, if any, bearing on consensus out there. Expressing viewpoints -- dispassionately, if at all possible -- would be a good first step when discussing this topic outside the realm of RI.

Despite my approach here (which, by the way, doesn't occur in a vacuum: it's in part due to the lack of earnest engagement, or otherwise baseless snipes; I also take full ownership of my commentary, for better or worse), my approach out there has been largely more productive.

But it's a Hurculean effort, given the resources and platforms available to the Very Few in positions of great influence. As I mentioned in another thread:

Belligerent Savant » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:22 am wrote:.

All that aside, fully agree with the following, from IAM:

Greed to individually succeed financially is what needs to be altered to something quite the opposite, wellbeing for all.


Unfortunately, the underpinnings of the system greatly incentivize the former (Greed, unchecked) while suppressing the latter (well-being for all).

This can be changed, of course, but the reality is that it will likely not occur until after this current zeitgeist is fully expressed. By this I mean, things will likely get worse before they will get better, and there's a good chance "better" won't happen, at least not en masse, within our allotted timeframes. But individually, or at the community-level, well-being can be achieved. That's likely our best bet.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:13 am

stickdog99 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:25 pm wrote:
brainpanhandler » 10 Mar 2021 18:24 wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:34 pm wrote:
Now, even in October, masks are still the end-all-be-all of coronavirus prevention such that anyone not wearing a mask is seen as either callous or crazy.


Yah. Strange how they are though. And violent and stupid.


Hmmm. What do you call people who wear masks religiously everywhere they go for over a full year just because constantly lying authorities told them to (after just telling them that this would not help)? What do you call people who won't even consider the scientific evidence about the effectiveness and costs and risks vs. supposed benefits of mask wearing when this evidence is presented to them because they already "know" that anyone who uses scientific evidence to question the orthodoxy of the COVID-faithful is by definition a selfish, violent, fascist brute?


Mask wearing is a type of precautionary principle. It's not more complicated than that.

If you believe that the virus exists and that its unmitigated propagation poses an ongoing public health crisis. And you believe the virus is transmitted via aerosols and droplets. Then wearing a mask indoors, in public spaces is a virtually no cost potential benefit. It's all upside. Wear a fucking mask.

It is not more complicated than that.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby kelley » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:29 am

wearing a mask for a year or so is a minor annoyance

people otoh are a major annoyance all the fucking time
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:35 am

Belligerent Savant » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:59 pm wrote:.

Another lazy, inept strawman comment. Unfortunate.

Carry on, footsoldiers.


There are of course exceptions BS. Perhaps even a sizeable portion of people that refuse to wear masks are not really callous, crazy, violent or stupid. But it's pretty clear to me what a majority of that segment of the population is; intellectually, demographically, politically, socially. And callous, crazy and stupid are apt descriptions of that lot. And for some violent. That's where ignorance and fear lead.

Lazy? Maybe. I've been called worse. I work with a vulnerable population. People that are elderly, ill and disabled. I have gone a year without contracting the virus. I wear an N95 mask whenever I am in close proximity to another human being when indoors for any length of time. Simple. No apparent downside for me. I have since gotten both doses of the Moderna vaccine, without issue. Just expected immune responses.

I am open to all sorts of theories swirling around the pandemic. That mask wearing is some sort of fascist mass mindcontrol or is some sort of serious imposition on civil liberties I am not.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:33 pm

brainpanhandler » 11 Mar 2021 15:13 wrote:
stickdog99 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:25 pm wrote:
brainpanhandler » 10 Mar 2021 18:24 wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:34 pm wrote:
Now, even in October, masks are still the end-all-be-all of coronavirus prevention such that anyone not wearing a mask is seen as either callous or crazy.


Yah. Strange how they are though. And violent and stupid.


Hmmm. What do you call people who wear masks religiously everywhere they go for over a full year just because constantly lying authorities told them to (after just telling them that this would not help)? What do you call people who won't even consider the scientific evidence about the effectiveness and costs and risks vs. supposed benefits of mask wearing when this evidence is presented to them because they already "know" that anyone who uses scientific evidence to question the orthodoxy of the COVID-faithful is by definition a selfish, violent, fascist brute?


Mask wearing is a type of precautionary principle. It's not more complicated than that.

If you believe that the virus exists and that its unmitigated propagation poses an ongoing public health crisis. And you believe the virus is transmitted via aerosols and droplets. Then wearing a mask indoors, in public spaces is a virtually no cost potential benefit. It's all upside. Wear a fucking mask.

It is not more complicated than that.


OK.

But do "you believe" that 1.5 billion masks in our oceans in just one year is good for the environment?

Do "you believe" that human beings are unharmed by the dangerous fumes that many masks release?

Do "you believe" that human beings are unharmed by continually breathing all the bacteria and fungus that masks harbor?

Do "you believe" that human beings are unharmed by the masks' restriction of oxygen to the lungs and thus to the brain?

Do "you believe" that constant mask wearing induces no stress whatsoever on the constant mask wearers?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680614/

Conclusion: … Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death.”

https://clinmedjournals.org/articles/ji ... -6-130.php

Results (Abstract): A total of 343 healthcare professionals on the COVID-19 front lines participated in this study [New York City]. 314 respondents reported adverse effects from prolonged mask use with headaches being the most common complaint (n = 245). Skin breakdown was experienced by 175 respondents, and acne was reported in 182 respondents.
8 Impaired cognition was reported in 81 respondents. … Some respondents experienced resolved side effects once masks were removed, while others required physical or medical intervention.

Conclusion (Abstract): Prolonged use of N95 and surgical masks by healthcare professionals during COVID-19 has caused adverse effects such as headaches, rash, acne, skin breakdown, and impaired cognition in the majority of those surveyed.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 21-05075-8

“Results (Abstract): A total of 400 healthcare providers completed the questionnaire, 383 of them met the inclusion criteria [Italy]. The majority were doctors, with a mean age of 33.4 ± 9.2 years old. Among 166/383 subjects, who were headache free at baseline, 44 (26.5%) developed de novo headache. Furthermore, 217/383 reported a previous diagnosis of primary headache disorder: 137 were affected by migraine and 80 had tension-type headache. A proportion (31.3%) of these primary headache sufferers experienced worsening of their pre-existing headache disorder, mainly for migraine frequency and attack mean duration.

Conclusions (Abstract): Our data showed the appearance of de novo associated facemask headache in previous headache-free subjects and an exacerbation of pre-existing primary headache disorders, mostly experienced by people with migraine disease.


https://oem.bmj.com/content/early/2020/ ... 020-106956

“Results (Abstract): The subjects are n=306, 244 women (79.7%), with an average age of 43 years (range 23–65) [Spain]. Of the total, 129 (42.2%) were physicians, 112 (36.6%) nurses and 65 (21.2%) other health workers. 208 (79.7%) used surgical masks and 53 (20.3%) used filter masks. Of all those surveyed, 158 (51.6%) presented ‘de novo’ headache. The occurrence of a headache was independently associated with the use of a filter mask, OR 2.14 (95% CI 1.07 to 4.32); being a nurse, OR 2.09 (95% CI 1.18 to 3.72) or another health worker, OR 6.94 (95% CI 3.01 to 16.04); or having a history of asthma, OR 0.29 (95% CI 0.09 to 0.89). According to the type of mask used, there were differences in headache intensity, and the impact of a headache in the subjects who used a filter mask was worse in all the aspects evaluated.

Conclusion (Abstract): The appearance of ‘de novo’ headache is associated with the use of filter masks and is more frequent in cert


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7087880/

Discussion (Abstract): We discuss how N95 and surgical facemasks induce significantly different temperature and humidity in the microclimates of the facemasks, which have profound influences on heart rate and thermal stress and subjective perception of discomfort.”

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 20-01704-y

Discussion: This first randomized cross-over study assessing the effects of surgical masks and FFP2/N95 masks on cardiopulmonary exercise capacity yields clear results. Both masks have a marked negative impact on exercise parameters such as maximum power output (Pmax) and the maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max/kg). FFP2/N95 masks show consistently more pronounced negative effects compared to surgical masks. Both masks significantly reduce pulmonary parameters at rest (FVC, FEV1, PEF) and at maximum load (VE, BF, TV). …

Pulmonary function: … The data of this study are obtained in healthy young volunteers, the impairment is likely to be significantly greater, e.g., in patients with obstructive pulmonary diseases (ref). From our data, we conclude that wearing a medical face mask has a significant impact on pulmonary parameters both at rest and during maximal exercise in healthy adults.

13 Cardiac function: … These data suggest a myocardial [relating to the muscular tissue of the heart] compensation for the pulmonary limitation in the healthy volunteers. In patients with impaired myocardial function, this compensation may not be possible.”


https://pdmj.org/papers/masks_false_saf ... ers_part2/

How is any of that "virtually no cost"? Because it doesn't bother you too much and makes you feel safer, all people should be be forced to do it even though there is no actual scientific evidence that it has any effect whatsoever on reducing the transmission of respiratory diseases?

Why do I have the sinking suspicion that you will not deign to respond to the scientific evidence?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:41 pm

kelley » 11 Mar 2021 15:29 wrote:wearing a mask for a year or so is a minor annoyance

people otoh are a major annoyance all the fucking time


Yes, it is a "minor annoyance". You know, like eating the mercury in your tuna sandwich and drinking the fluoride and chloramine in your tap water. You barely even notice it after awhile!

But the question is, just as it is with martial law, small business closures, prohibitions against all social contact, and even continually slathering your hands with toxic chemicals, does the benefit exceed the harm?

Do you still have the capability of even examining these questions objectively?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:55 pm

brainpanhandler » 11 Mar 2021 15:35 wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:59 pm wrote:.

Another lazy, inept strawman comment. Unfortunate.

Carry on, footsoldiers.


There are of course exceptions BS. Perhaps even a sizeable portion of people that refuse to wear masks are not really callous, crazy, violent or stupid. But it's pretty clear to me what a majority of that segment of the population is; intellectually, demographically, politically, socially. And callous, crazy and stupid are apt descriptions of that lot. And for some violent. That's where ignorance and fear lead.

Lazy? Maybe. I've been called worse. I work with a vulnerable population. People that are elderly, ill and disabled. I have gone a year without contracting the virus. I wear an N95 mask whenever I am in close proximity to another human being when indoors for any length of time. Simple. No apparent downside for me. I have since gotten both doses of the Moderna vaccine, without issue. Just expected immune responses.

I am open to all sorts of theories swirling around the pandemic. That mask wearing is some sort of fascist mass mindcontrol or is some sort of serious imposition on civil liberties I am not.


Have any of those vulnerable people you work with succumbed to COVID-19?

I am not trying to demean your anecdotal observations. But in my personal experience, there has been no correlation between the people I know who religiously wear masks and those who do not in terms of which ones did or did not get COVID-19. Furthermore, the peaks in my community typically coincided with lockdown measures and near universal adherence to religious mask wearing. I have seen absolutely no change in anyone's habits, yet somehow the spread of COVID-19 (at least as measured by PCR testing) has gone up and gone down three times already. Why?

And more to my larger point, will you ever again dare to bare your face to the vulnerable population you work with? I mean, once you learn to equate mask wearing with virtuous salvation, how can you ever return to the bare-faced sinfulness of the callously violent and ignorant?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:53 pm

brainpanhandler » 11 Mar 2021 15:35 wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:59 pm wrote:.

Another lazy, inept strawman comment. Unfortunate.

Carry on, footsoldiers.


There are of course exceptions BS. Perhaps even a sizeable portion of people that refuse to wear masks are not really callous, crazy, violent or stupid. But it's pretty clear to me what a majority of that segment of the population is; intellectually, demographically, politically, socially. And callous, crazy and stupid are apt descriptions of that lot. And for some violent. That's where ignorance and fear lead.

Lazy? Maybe. I've been called worse. I work with a vulnerable population. People that are elderly, ill and disabled. I have gone a year without contracting the virus. I wear an N95 mask whenever I am in close proximity to another human being when indoors for any length of time. Simple. No apparent downside for me. I have since gotten both doses of the Moderna vaccine, without issue. Just expected immune responses.

I am open to all sorts of theories swirling around the pandemic. That mask wearing is some sort of fascist mass mindcontrol or is some sort of serious imposition on civil liberties I am not.


Have any of those vulnerable people you work with succumbed to COVID-19?


Yes

I am not trying to demean your anecdotal observations. But in my personal experience, there has been no correlation between the people I know who religiously wear masks and those who do not in terms of which ones did or did not get COVID-19. Furthermore, the peaks in my community typically coincided with lockdown measures and near universal adherence to religious mask wearing. I have seen absolutely no change in anyone's habits, yet somehow the spread of COVID-19 (at least as measured by PCR testing) has gone up and gone down three times already. Why?


Don't know, but speculation based on our limited anecdotal experiences is fairly useless.

And more to my larger point, will you ever again dare to bare your face to the vulnerable population you work with? I mean, once you learn to equate mask wearing with virtuous salvation, how can you ever return to the bare-faced sinfulness of the callously violent and ignorant?


I am not without any concern about how my perception of risk has changed. It's not like I am happy with this state of affairs.

As far as the callous, crazy and stupid... I think you know who I am talking about. Surely you don't need me to bring up youtube videos of these idiots. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:07 pm

.

I'd like to walk back my earlier response to bphandler (quoted above), at least in this respect:

I understand the sentiment bphandler expresses, and the reasons for them.

As with 9/11, there are extreme takes on this highly charged topic, or perhaps more accurately, takes that are littered with poisoned well narratives, as would be expected/anticipated (as an aside, Trump is the 'ground zero' of poisoned well tactics: i personally don't believe his early Covid takes, however off-base -- and/or close to accurate -- they were during those early months, should be dismissed as unhinged free associations, as they were highly effective table setters. Many that claim to be on the 'left' have rebuked any data points against mask madates/lockdowns, however reasoned, simply due to the perceived association with Orange Man. The perception managers know what they're doing, clearly).

What i find particularly frustrating, HERE, is that exceedingly absurd takes out there are being introduced here and associated with the reasoned takes by me, stickdog, harvey, (and JR), et al. We're largely referencing case studies. Talking points by doctors and scientists. Talking points that merit consideration.

This is what I mean by lazy. There is no indication whatsoever that our positions align with 'jewish space lasers', FFS.

Pay attention, and stop allowing your lizard brains to take over.

(that last sentence is intended for those that aren't simply trolling)
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:08 pm

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby thankyouberrymuch » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 am

I emerged from a lengthy hibernation in order to peruse this thread for deep info about the pandemic beyond the scope of liberal or conservative MSM, and have instead found examples of mask debates that should have been settled 9 or so months ago, albeit more eloquent than the forms found on Reddit or my uncle’s Facebook page. To this I say: please wear a mask around strangers indoors. It definitely doesn't hurt. We really don't know much about this virus, still.

I want to know insider things re: variants surging in Brazil and Central/Eastern Europe, anybody got anything relevant? It seems very convenient that those who've been (somewhat rightly) skeptical of the promotion of Covid19 as a high death-rate menace worthy of mass lockdowns/fear/panic will probably not be convinced that any variant of the OG strains could be more severe. IE after a year of this, nothing would convince such skeptics to start taking the situation seriously, even if extant variants do turn out to be deadlier, or if subsequent ones prove to be.

I submit this piece, the most compelling article on the lab leak origin theory I have yet seen. Part of the reason it hits me is due to the dissonance of the Trump administration having claimed things herein that may be intriguing and with merit, when they gleefully lied about so much for 4 years. There is the potential that this author is a mouthpiece for the US security state, which like anything else geopolitical in nature, is very possible.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... rpt-474322

“In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened.”

On January 15, in its last days, President Donald Trump’s State Department put out a statement with serious claims about the origins of the Covid-19 pandemic. The statement said the U.S. intelligence community had evidence that several researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology laboratory were sick with Covid-like symptoms in autumn 2019—implying the Chinese government had hidden crucial information about the outbreak for months—and that the WIV lab, despite “presenting itself as a civilian institution,” was conducting secret research projects with the Chinese military. The State Department alleged a Chinese government cover-up and asserted that “Beijing continues today to withhold vital information that scientists need to protect the world from this deadly virus, and the next one.”

The exact origin of the new coronavirus remains a mystery to this day, but the search for answers is not just about assigning blame. Unless the source is located, the true path of the virus can’t be traced, and scientists can’t properly study the best ways to prevent future outbreaks.

The original Chinese government story, that the pandemic spread from a seafood market in Wuhan, was the first and therefore most widely accepted theory. But cracks in that theory slowly emerged throughout the late winter and spring of 2020. The first known case of Covid-19 in Wuhan, it was revealed in February, had no connection to the market. The Chinese government closed the market in January and sanitized it before proper samples could be taken. It wouldn’t be until May that the Chinese Centers for Disease Control disavowed the market theory, admitting it had no idea how the outbreak began, but by then it had become the story of record, in China and internationally.

In the spring of 2020, inside the U.S. government, some officials began to see and collect evidence of a different, perhaps more troubling theory—that the outbreak had a connection to one of the laboratories in Wuhan, among them the WIV, a world leading center of research on bat coronaviruses.

To some inside the government, the name of the laboratory was familiar. Its research on bat viruses had already drawn the attention of U.S. diplomats and officials at the Beijing Embassy in late 2017, prompting them to alert Washington that the lab’s own scientists had reported “a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory.”

But their cables to Washington were ignored.

When I published the warnings from these cables in April 2020, they added fuel to a debate that had already gone from a scientific and forensic question to a hot-button political issue, as the previously internal U.S. government debate over the lab’s possible connection spilled into public view. The next day, Trump said he was “investigating,” and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called on Beijing to “come clean” about the origin of the outbreak. Two weeks later, Pompeo said there was “enormous evidence” pointing to the lab, but he didn’t provide any of said evidence. As Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping's relationship unraveled and administration officials openly blamed the Wuhan lab, the U.S.-China relationship only went further downhill.

As the pandemic set in worldwide, the origin story was largely set aside in the public coverage of the crisis. But the internal government debate continued, now over whether the United States should release more information about what it knew about the lab and its possible connection to the outbreak. The January 15 statement was cleared by the intelligence community, but the underlying data was still held secret. Likely changing no minds, it was meant as a signal—showing that circumstantial evidence did exist, and that the theory deserved further investigation.

Now, the new Joe Biden team is walking a tightrope, calling on Beijing to release more data, while declining to endorse or dispute the Trump administration’s controversial claims. The origin story remains entangled both in domestic politics and U.S.-China relations. Last month, National security adviser Jake Sullivan issued a statement expressing “deep concerns” about a forthcoming report from a team assembled by the World Health Organization that toured Wuhan—even visiting the lab—but was denied crucial data by the Chinese authorities.

But more than four years ago, long before this question blew up into an international point of tension between China and the United States, the story started with a simple warning.

***

In late 2017, top health and science officials at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing attended a conference in the Chinese capital. There, they saw a presentation on a new study put out by a group of Chinese scientists, including several from the Wuhan lab, in conjunction with the U.S. National Institutes of Health.

Since the 2002 outbreak of SARS—the deadly disease caused by a coronavirus transmitted by bats in China—scientists around the world had been looking for ways to predict and limit future outbreaks of similar diseases. To aid the effort, the NIH had funded a number of projects that involved the WIV scientists, including much of the Wuhan lab’s work with bat coronaviruses. The new study was entitled “Discovery of a Rich Gene Pool of Bat SARS-Related Coronaviruses Provides New Insights into the Origin of SARS Coronavirus.”

These researchers, the American officials learned, had found a population of bats from caves in Yunnan province that gave them insight into how SARS coronaviruses originated and spread. The researchers boasted that they may have found the cave where the original SARS coronavirus originated. But all the U.S. diplomats cared about was that these scientists had discovered three new viruses that had a unique characteristic: they contained a "spike protein” that was particularly good at grabbing on to a specific receptor in human lung cells known as an ACE2 receptor. That means the viruses were potentially very dangerous for humans—and that these viruses were now in a lab with which they, the U.S. diplomats, were largely unfamiliar.

Knowing the significance of the Wuhan virologists’ discovery, and knowing that the WIV’s top-level biosafety laboratory (BSL-4) was relatively new, the U.S. Embassy health and science officials in Beijing decided to go to Wuhan and check it out. In total, the embassy sent three teams of experts in late 2017 and early 2018 to meet with the WIV scientists, among them Shi Zhengli, often referred to as the “bat woman” because of her extensive experience studying coronaviruses found in bats.

When they sat down with the scientists at the WIV, the American diplomats were shocked by what they heard. The Chinese researchers told them they didn’t have enough properly trained technicians to safely operate their BSL-4 lab. The Wuhan scientists were asking for more support to get the lab up to top standards.

The diplomats wrote two cables to Washington reporting on their visits to the Wuhan lab. More should be done to help the lab meet top safety standards, they said, and they urged Washington to get on it. They also warned that the WIV researchers had found new bat coronaviruses could easily infect human cells, and which used the same cellular route that had been used by the original SARS coronavirus.

Taken together, those two points—a particularly dangerous groups of viruses being studied in a lab with real safety problems—were intended as a warning about a potential public-health crisis, one of the cable writers told me. They kept the cables unclassified because they wanted more people back home to be able to read and share them, according to the cable writer. But there was no response from State Department headquarters and they were never made public. And as U.S.-China tensions rose over the course of 2018, American diplomats lost access to labs such as the one at the WIV.

“The cable was a warning shot,” one U.S. official said. “They were begging people to pay attention to what was going on.” The world would be paying attention soon enough—but by then, it would be too late.

The cables were not leaked to me by any Trump administration political official, as many in the media wrongly assumed. In fact, Secretary of State Pompeo was angry when he found out about the leak. He needed to keep up the veneer of good relations with China, and these revelations would make that job more difficult. Trump and President Xi had agreed during their March 26 phone call to halt the war of words that had erupted when a Chinese diplomat alleged on Twitter that the outbreak might have been caused by the U.S. Army. That had prompted Trump to start calling it the “China virus,” deliberately blaming Beijing in a racist way. Xi had warned Trump in that call that China’s level of cooperation on releasing critical equipment in America’s darkest moment would be jeopardized by continued accusations.

After receiving the cables from a source, I called around to get reactions from other American officials I trusted. What I found was that, just months into the pandemic, a large swath of the government already believed the virus had escaped from the WIV lab, rather than having leaped from an animal to a human at the Wuhan seafood market or some other random natural setting, as the Chinese government had claimed.

Any theory of the pandemic’s origins had to account for the fact that the outbreak of the novel coronavirus—or, by its official name, SARS-CoV-2—first appeared in Wuhan, on the doorstep of the lab that possessed one of the world’s largest collections of bat coronaviruses and that possessed the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, a virus known as RaTG13 that Shi identified in her lab.

Shi, in her March interview, said that when she was first told about the virus outbreak in her town, she thought the officials had gotten it wrong, because she would have guessed that such a virus would break out in southern China, where most of the bats live. “I had never expected this kind of thing to happen in Wuhan, in central China,” she said.

By April, U.S. officials at the NSC and the State Department had begun to compile circumstantial evidence that the WIV lab, rather than the seafood market, was actually the source of the virus. The former explanation for the outbreak was entirely plausible, they felt, whereas the latter would be an extreme coincidence. But the officials couldn’t say that out loud because there wasn’t firm proof either way. And if the U.S. government accused China of lying about the outbreak without firm evidence, Beijing would surely escalate tensions even more, which meant that Americans might not get the medical supplies that were desperately needed to combat the rapid spread of SARS-CoV-2 in the United States.

Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton seemed not to have been concerned about any of those considerations. On February 16, he had offered a totally unfounded theory of his own, claiming on Fox News that the virus might have come from China’s biowarfare program—suggesting, in other words, that it had been engineered deliberately to kill humans. This wasn’t supported by any known research: To this day, scientists largely agree that the virus was not “engineered” to be deadly; SARS-CoV-2 showed no evidence of direct genetic manipulation. Furthermore, the WIV lab had published some of its research about bat coronaviruses that can infect humans—not exactly the level of secrecy you would expect for a clandestine weapons program.

As Cotton’s speculation vaulted the origin story into the news in an incendiary new way, he undermined the ongoing effort in other parts of the U.S. government to pinpoint the exact origins and nature of the coronavirus pandemic. From then on, journalists and politicians alike would conflate the false idea of the coronavirus being a Chinese bioweapon with the plausible idea that the virus had accidentally been released from the WIV lab, making it a far more politically loaded question to pursue.

***

After I published a Washington Post column on the Wuhan cables on April 14, Pompeo publicly called on Beijing to “come clean” about the origin of the outbreak and weeks later declared there was “enormous evidence” to that effect beyond the Wuhan cables themselves. But he refused to produce any other proof.

At the same time, some members of the intelligence community leaked to my colleagues that they had discovered “no firm evidence” that the outbreak originated in the lab. That was true in a sense. Deputy national security adviser Matthew Pottinger had asked the intelligence community to look for evidence of all possible scenarios for the outbreak, including the market or a lab accident, but they hadn’t found any firm links to either. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There was a gap in the intelligence. And the intelligence community didn’t know either way.

Large parts of the scientific community also decried my report, pointing to the fact that natural spillovers have been the cause of other viral outbreaks, and that they were the culprit more often than accidents. But many of the scientists who spoke out to defend the lab were Shi’s research partners and funders, like the head of the global public health nonprofit EcoHealth Alliance, Peter Daszak; their research was tied to hers, and if the Wuhan lab were implicated in the pandemic, they would have to answer a lot of tough questions.

Likewise, the American scientists who knew and worked with Shi could not say for sure her lab was unconnected to the outbreak, because there’s no way they could know exactly what the WIV lab was doing outside their cooperative projects. Beijing threatened Australia and the EU for even suggesting an independent investigation into the origins of the virus.

In May, Chinese CDC officials declared on Chinese state media that they had ruled out the possibility that the seafood market was the origin of the virus, completely abandoning the original official story. As for the “bat woman” herself, Shi didn’t think the lab accident theory was so crazy. In her March interview, she described frantically searching her own lab’s records after learning of the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan. “Could they have come from our lab?” she recalled asking herself.

Shi said she was relieved when she didn’t find the new coronavirus in her files. “That really took a load off my mind,” she said. “I had not slept a wink in days.” Of course, if she had found the virus, she likely would not have been able to admit it, given that the Chinese government was going around the world insisting the lab had not been involved in the outbreak.

***

A key argument of those Chinese and American scientists disputing the lab accident theory is that Chinese researchers had performed their work out in the open and had disclosed the coronavirus research they were performing. This argument was used to attack anyone who didn’t believe the Chinese scientists’ firm denials their labs could possibly have been responsible for the outbreak.

But one senior administration official told me that many officials in various parts of the U.S. government, especially the NSC and the State Department, came to believe that these researchers had not been as forthcoming as had been claimed.

What they were worried about was something called “gain-of-function” research, in which the virulence or transmissibility of dangerous pathogens is deliberately increased. The purpose is to help scientists predict how viruses might evolve in ways that hurt humans before it happens in nature. But by bypassing pathogens’ natural evolutionary cycles, these experiments create risks of a human-made outbreak if a lab accident were to occur. For this reason, the Obama administration issued a moratorium on gain-of-function experiments in October 2014.

The Wuhan Institute of Virology had openly participated in gain-of-function research in partnership with U.S. universities and institutions. But the official told me the U.S. government had evidence that Chinese labs were performing gain-of-function research on a much larger scale than was publicly disclosed, meaning they were taking more risks in more labs than anyone outside China was aware of. This insight, in turn, fed into the lab-accident hypothesis in a new and troubling way.

A little-noticed study was released in early July 2020 by a group of Chinese researchers in Beijing, including several affiliated with the Academy of Military Medical Science. These scientists said they had created a new model for studying SARS-CoV-2 by creating mice with human-like lung characteristics by using the CRISPR gene-editing technology to give the mice lung cells with the human ACE2 receptor — the cell receptor that allowed coronaviruses to so easily infect human lungs.

After consultations with experts, some U.S. officials came to believe this Beijing lab was likely conducting coronavirus experiments on mice fitted with ACE2 receptors well before the coronavirus outbreak—research they hadn’t disclosed and continued not to admit to. In its January 15 statement, the State Department alleged that although the Wuhan Institute of Virology disclosed some of its participation in gain-of-function research, it has not disclosed its work on RaTG13 and “has engaged in classified research, including laboratory animal experiments, on behalf of the Chinese military since at least 2017.” That, by itself, did not help to explain how SARS-CoV-2 originated. But it was clear that officials believed there was a lot of risky coronavirus research going on in Chinese labs that the rest of the world was simply not aware of.

“This was just a peek under a curtain of an entire galaxy of activity, including labs and military labs in Beijing and Wuhan playing around with coronaviruses in ACE2 mice in unsafe labs,” the senior administration official said. “It suggests we are getting a peek at a body of activity that isn’t understood in the West or even has precedent here.”

This pattern of deception and obfuscation, combined with the new revelations about how Chinese labs were handling dangerous coronaviruses in ways their Western counterparts didn’t know about, led some U.S. officials to become increasingly convinced that Chinese authorities were manipulating scientific information to fit their narrative. But there was so little transparency, it was impossible for the U.S. government to prove, one way or the other. “If there was a smoking gun, the CCP [Communist Party of China] buried it along with anyone who would dare speak up about it,” one U.S. official told me. “We’ll probably never be able to prove it one way or the other, which was Beijing’s goal all along.”

Back in 2017, the U.S. diplomats who had visited the lab in Wuhan had foreseen these very events, but nobody had listened and nothing had been done. “We were trying to warn that that lab was a serious danger,” one of the cable writers who had visited the lab told me. “I have to admit, I thought it would be maybe a SARS-like outbreak again. If I knew it would turn out to be the greatest pandemic in human history, I would have made a bigger stink about it.”
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:54 am

thankyouberrymuch » 12 Mar 2021 06:55 wrote:I emerged from a lengthy hibernation in order to peruse this thread for deep info about the pandemic beyond the scope of liberal or conservative MSM, and have instead found examples of mask debates that should have been settled 9 or so months ago, albeit more eloquent than the forms found on Reddit or my uncle’s Facebook page. To this I say: please wear a mask around strangers indoors. It definitely doesn't hurt. We really don't know much about this virus, still.


Exactly. Since we don't know much COVID-19 and because known Trump supporters have argued against masks, it necessarily follows that the question of whether the benefits of wearing masks actually exceed their costs and risks is closed.

Nothing could be more logical, and there is no reason to consider any scientific evidence. Just as in the cases of putting fluoride in our drinking water, filling our mouths with mercury amalgam, and making our kids take Adderall, we all already know that perpetual mask wearing is inherently awesome. Healthcare is totally political, and liberal consensus can never be wrong.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:03 am

If you are currently totally healthy as far as you know, whose health do you imagine that you are protecting by wearing a mask?

Has there ever been a single demonstrated case of any asymptomatic person transmitting COVID-19 to anyone?

Has there ever been a single demonstrated case of any person (symptomatic or not) transmitting COVID-19 to anyone else in an outdoor setting?

To be honest, I am not 100% sure of the answers to these questions, but the last time I looked there were no known cases of asymptomatic transmission and just one known case of outdoor transmission in the entire world over the entire course of the pandemic.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:40 am

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:43 am

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