Modern Monetary Theory

[Elvis]

The point of contention is Inflation. You think The Fed has it under control, I do not.

The Fed has no idea why inflation has been so low! They feel supremely lucky, but they don't have much of a clue.

Central banking is an ongoing engineering project, we have learned a lot and it's not a huge surprise that inflation management has overall improved.

I'd rather argue with a flat earther than an MMT cultist.

Interesting epithet coming from a bitcoin enthusiast. Why don't you try to articulate a real response?

[Elvis]

Agent Orange Cooper, may I ask which MMT books or journal papers you've read? Thanks.

[Elvis]

BNY Mellon, as of December 2020, $41.1 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.bnymellon.com/us/en/about-u ... 30169.html

State Street, as of December 2020, $38.8 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://investors.statestreet.com/inves ... fault.aspx

JPMorgan Chase, as of October 2020, $27.8 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.occ.gov/static/enforcement- ... 20-067.pdf

Citigroup, as of December 2019, $21.2 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.citigroup.com/citi/news/2020/200723b.htm

BNP Paribas, as of December 2019, $11.8 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... exico.html

Five banks, a combined $140.7 trillion in assets under custody.

Why own the world when you can just control it.

I would want to know what those assets are—the proportions of loans, consumer savings accounts, pension monies, repackaged debt securities, derivatives, Treasuries, real estate, etc. In other words, what is it exactly they own? Most of it, I'm guessing, is unproductive financialization and should probably be prohibited or discouraged. (Traditional savings accounts make up a small portion of big-bank assets—around 10% at Bank of America; the other assets I'd have to look up.)

As I've mentioned, I'm all for abolishing the predatory finance industry. Not holding my breath or anything.

[dada]

"
For the Greeks, adoption of coinage was the driver of democracy. It ended the reign of kings; anyone who had enough coins could raise an army and go after the guy on the throne. Some bright soul figured out that no good could come of that, and a more equitable system was worked out (by & for Greek male citizens, but...).

Edit: With regards to the marketplace, there was no marketplace before coins were adopted; that is, there was no retail agora where sundry produce & goods were sold until fungible money was invented and made it possible. (Money did not arise out of private retail markets; money created private retail markets.)"

I'm sorry, but this is quite a racist, western supremacist thing to say. If this is the kind of "history" that mmt espouses, it is worse than garbage, belongs in the dustbin of history with the rest of the supremacist revisionary stuff.

"raising an army and going after the guy on the throne" is not unique to the greeks and their democracy-creatinv magic power tokens, but is a basic way kingdoms have risen and fallen since time immemorial.

And I can't see how you can say people didn't gather in marketplaces to sell their goods, everywhere, all over the world, also since time immemorial. Your argument here is that money civilized the primitive savages. Especially the greek money, because we all know they were such geniuses and better than everyone and not at all savage.

So it is becoming very clear that mmt is grounded on racist, supremacist revisionist history.

[dada]

"It does. It absolutely does start with those drives. Warren Mosler, the "godfather of MMT," routinely outlines "the money story" and the coercive nature of its beginnings. David Graeber also described "the money story," independently and in almost exactly the same terms. This doesn't mean that Mosler likes coercion—he doesn't, and has ideas to take coercion out of money.

Both Mosler and Graeber realize that public money can be used for good or for evil. Britain, France, Belgium and others have used it brutally to extract wealth in Africa—sickening. Pericles used it to build the Parthenon—still the most beautiful building in the world.

Here is just one instance (you can find many) of Mosler addressing exactly that which you offhandedly say MMT ignores"

Last night you said the first means of exploitation is not slavery and sweatshops, though, but "fear of getting fired by the boss." I'm thinking that didn't just come from nowhere, but from your mmt studies. Throwing media at me doesn't help your argument, it shows that what mmt teaches doesn't give you the tools to address the actual issue of exploitation in a meaningful way in the big money debate.

Modern, then, as you are saying modern means for mmt, sounds like just basically mass production. And so mmt is just monetary theory for mass production.

"Ending involuntary unemployment" is a bad idea because it would certainly be used politically, as a means to end all unemployment, by law. And I think the same thing applies here as with exploitation. If you can't argue the point but instead must throw media at me and shut down the discussion with a "look into it, or not," it doesn't say much for the integrity of the theory you are pushing here.

[dada]

"I'd rather argue with a flat earther than an MMT cultist."

I can definitely see the similarities. In mmt, the world as we know it was created by the greeks two or three thousand years ago. And money is the worship-worthy fetish of the great monotheistic god, invested with the terrible divine creative force that is both good and evil.

[JackRiddler]

"I'd rather argue with a flat earther than an MMT cultist."

[quoting AOC, which I just noticed - I think ours came first.]

Sure, in the same way that you'd rather be forced to fight Tiny Tim than Mike Tyson.

And someone who sees human liberation in Bitcoin cries cult, that's funny.

I can definitely see the similarities. In mmt, the world as we know it was created by the greeks two or three thousand years ago.

No. Moneys are created at many different times, by institutions and laws of varying design and effect; not by some assumed magical transition from an original state of barter and contract among merchants that no one can point to ever having originated in the historical record prior to coin-gold-token-moneys. This is a speculative myth like in drstrangelove's account with its strange void (very typical for the argument) regarding identifiable actors, times, places, institutions or laws prior to the 20th century.

Notwithstanding that "the Greeks" were the first to widely introduce coinage to the Mediterranean world, ca. 700s BCE forward, money had existed -- as a record of debts and credits -- at least since the advent of writing, most of the earliest writings still in existence (and thus possible to study) being records of credits, debts and payments. Mosler's glancing reference to "the Greeks" in some blog (it's hard to tell where you are getting your quotations, by the way) is not a source or a foundation for your wild overstatements, dada, at least read his book or, better yet, Kelton's, or one of Hudson's.

As for pre-literate societies, Graeber describes at length how the anthropological studies are overwhelming in showing personal credit and trust was the original means of exchange, not coin, gold, or tokens. Tokens appear to originally come into existence not as a means of commodity exchange but as a symbolic way to pay off debts that are unpayable (the taking of lives, basically) so as to avoid and minimize chains of vengeance and vendetta. They are not initially spendable for commodity exchange, nor does the idea seem to occur until much later. Mandated use of gold and coin indeed arose as ways for stakeholders (conquerors, states and other authorities) to feed armies, establish market exchange under their control in given territories, and demand taxation or corvee labor in return.

.

[dada]

What I'm seeing here is not pleasant, but I feel that it needs to be brought to light. That Jack's presentation of mmt as a theory describing the ultra-sophisticated alternate reality game of finance, is an invitation to play the mmt game, which is exactly the ultra-sophisticated alternate reality game of "describing the finance game."

Not seeing that mmt is for players of sophisticated alternate reality games make it far more insidious and dangerous than the Qgame, or the alternative news-hunter lifestyle game, even with their cult-like roles in crafting mob mentality. The mmt game begins in silencing the cries of the ghosts of history, and ends in the bright utopian future of work for all, and all for work.

The academic left can see how the Qstyle sleuthers are playing a game, but refuses to look at itself honestly here, to see the poison ideas it is spreading under the banner of modern money.

[dada]

My quotations came from Elvis' posts. I just figure anyone who is reading the thread carefully enough is following along and knows who said what. And anyone who isn't, doesn't need me to fill in the details for them, they're just dabbling in the topic.

Calling my critique overstatement doesn't take away from the insights it brings to the discussion. Like I said, I'm sorry that it sounds so harsh, I know it's because of the disappointment I felt when I learned that mmt is not post-marxist critique of money, dangerous words wrapped in a language of momentum for getting down and dirty with the Chicago style, but a sophisticated alternate reality game that has even captured the imagination of my good friend Jack Riddler.

But now I can't tell, is what you are saying representative of mmt, or how Elvis is presenting it? Because I like what you are saying, but I get the feeling that's because you have thought all this through, so your responses more are alive with thought than dead in the game, which is looking more and more like the enshrinement of money as fetish object.

[dada]

I mean, try to see it from my point of view for just a second. On this thread I've been presented with the standard western supremacist revisionist history, delivered happily, enthuiastically and totally unaware of what it looks like from the outside, a vehicle for talking points that might as well be coming straight out of the Hoover Institute thonktank.

Also and just as enthusiastically and unawares have learned that the "main means" of exploitation is fear of bossman giving the sack, and not slavery and sweatshops.

So whatever for everything else, these are the points I'm still raising. The ones that have given me the most trouble so far, besides the utopian results the theory is looking to arrive at, again very happily and totally unawares of how it sounds from here, outside of the alternate reality game world.

Or I can close my account with this thread, as I seem to be doing an awful lot of these days, and let you get back to discussing the financial weather.

[Agent Orange Cooper]

My problem with MMT is that it sells itself as some kind of revolutionary new theory when it is really just the exact same old fiat centrally planned money printing bullshit, but wrapped up in a new package and fed steroids and growth hormones. What if we just created even more money?

It's the "CDO" of economic theory.

[Agent Orange Cooper]

I notice that to avert incoming regulations, Bitcoin exchange peeps are now proclaiming that "Bitcoin is NOT a currency!!"

Dudes, we told you!

Who is proclaiming that? Tell that to the people of El Salvador, who are about to make it legal tender. You continue to argue against strawmen when it comes to Bitcoin.

[JackRiddler]

My problem with MMT is that it sells itself as some kind of revolutionary new theory when it is really just the exact same old fiat centrally planned money printing bullshit, but wrapped up in a new package and fed steroids and growth hormones. What if we just created even more money?

It's the "CDO" of economic theory.

What we really need is an economy based on a digital revival of gold mining and the gold standard, theoretically providing the exact same old deflationary bullshit further concentrating wealth in the fewest hands, at the same time just as dependent on central authority to sustain and protect it. I have to say theoretically because although BT has found a way to more than compete with real-world mining in regard to ecological damage, it can't actually replace money, is good for about 1/1,000,000 of the transactions it's actually supposed to replace, is literally impenetrable to the understanding of about 99% of everyone and basically a bubble sport for fanboys.

the people of El Salvador, who are about to make it legal tender.

"The people of El Salvador" -- thanks for the laugh! This is the president who introduced a bill in 2019 to give more gear and greater powers to the police and army, which required a $109 million loan from the U.S. (curiously obtainable only in U.S. dollars). When the measure met with overwhelming opposition in the parliament, he ordered it occupied by the army and demanded they vote with the soldiers present. He held a rally in which he told his supporters God had told him he was doing the right thing, during a prayer session immediately before. Even the State Department backed off that, and the Salvadoran Supreme Court ordered a stop to such actions, which he appears to have followed for the moment.

[drstrangelove]

and let you get back to discussing the financial weather.

People are rain dancing for the markets to pour down upon their crops. Markets are interesting human pulse lines to read, but once one starts investing in them, they''ll lose their soul.

[JackRiddler]

My quotations came from Elvis' posts. I just figure anyone who is reading the thread carefully enough is following along and knows who said what. And anyone who isn't, doesn't need me to fill in the details for them, they're just dabbling in the topic.

Maybe you have an eidetic memory for 34-page threads, dunno.

Like I said, I'm sorry that it sounds so harsh, I know it's because of the disappointment I felt when I learned that mmt is not post-marxist critique of money, dangerous words wrapped in a language of momentum for getting down and dirty with the Chicago style, but a sophisticated alternate reality game that has even captured the imagination of my good friend Jack Riddler.

And you learned this how? The above exchanges between us?

But now I can't tell, is what you are saying representative of mmt, or how Elvis is presenting it?

Dunno. Right now I get the impression that the more I say, no matter what, the more that will be used against me.

I suppose the rest about your reading of Elvis's comments you can have out with him, if he wants.

Standard Disclaimer: This is not meant as financial advice of any kind. The author declares no financial conflicts of interest and is not invested in any instruments whatsoever and never has been, other than prodigious cash reserves that at times have been estimated to number in the hundreds or even thousands of USD in bank accounts.

(Lies! I seem to remember I was given a stock certificate of some kind at a young age. Also a gold coin, maybe?)