Modern Monetary Theory

[JackRiddler]

Fuck, Google/Wiki seriously identifies him as a former "President of the Republic of Nicaragua."




And now for a very interesting video from the BT conference:

Nayib Bukele Flag of El Salvador
@nayibbukele Jun 5
Welcome to the future Flag of El Salvador #Bitcoin
https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/ ... 6178191366

Reply to above:

Frank D @FrankDashwood23
Replying to @nayibbukele
I hate people like this. They all talk like they know what's right for everyone else. All that is going on here is El Salvador's government is going broke, their people are turning to crypto, and they think they can get ahead of it, and go back to taxing everyone into poverty.
2:45 PM · Jun 6, 2021
https://twitter.com/FrankDashwood23/sta ... 0270345218

[drstrangelove]

BNY Mellon, as of December 2020, $41.1 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.bnymellon.com/us/en/about-u ... 30169.html

State Street, as of December 2020, $38.8 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://investors.statestreet.com/inves ... fault.aspx

JPMorgan Chase, as of October 2020, $27.8 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.occ.gov/static/enforcement- ... 20-067.pdf

Citigroup, as of December 2019, $21.2 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.citigroup.com/citi/news/2020/200723b.htm

BNP Paribas, as of December 2019, $11.8 trillion in assets under custody.
source - https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... exico.html

Five banks, a combined $140.7 trillion in assets under custody.

Why own the world when you can just control it.

I would want to know what those assets are—the proportions of loans, consumer savings accounts, pension monies, repackaged debt securities, derivatives, Treasuries, real estate, etc. In other words, what is it exactly they own? Most of it, I'm guessing, is unproductive financialization and should probably be prohibited or discouraged. (Traditional savings accounts make up a small portion of big-bank assets—around 10% at Bank of America; the other assets I'd have to look up.)

The assets held in custody are managed by mutual funds like Vanguard and Blackrock. This would suggest the vast majority of it is stock. And stock would be what they want to hold because as "trustees" Custodian banks can vote the proxy on all that stock and control the boards of corporations.

I don't know where I can actually look at, for example, a total asset sheet of BNY Mellon's 40+ Trillion custody assets. I've looked at the specific Custody agreements between Custodian Banks and specific funds, but not totals on the Custodian Bank end. It would be a full time job to tally all the individual disclosures, probably in the 100s of 1000s. Which is too much work to prove something I'm already quite sure of.

I really would do it if i could because it would further prove what I already believe is true about what's going on here.

[dada]

" you learned this how? The above exchanges between us?"

I can tell it isn't what I thought it was, or was picturing, certainly. I mean, obviously. If it were, I would be on board and not going into explicit detail as to what I see as fatal flaws in the theory beginning in its foundations.

Sorry you feel put on trial again, Jack. You old tart-stealer. That wonderland trial seems to keep coming up.

But no, I don't expect Elvis to be bothered very much what I had to say about mmt. After all these years on planet mars, I think I'm starting to catch on a bit better to how this fan stuff works. I'm a very slow learner. It doesn't matter what I'm saying in relation to the topic, specifically it will never be addressed, just let pass by. Because for the fan, I'm just interrupting the connection to the official product line, I might as well be speaking zulu. No one wants to hear it.

So anyway though, I think I will close my account with this thread. Guess I'm just not down with mmt. Love the Disclaimer, by the way.

[Agent Orange Cooper]

My problem with MMT is that it sells itself as some kind of revolutionary new theory when it is really just the exact same old fiat centrally planned money printing bullshit, but wrapped up in a new package and fed steroids and growth hormones. What if we just created even more money?

It's the "CDO" of economic theory.

What we really need is an economy based on a digital revival of gold mining and the gold standard, theoretically providing the exact same old deflationary bullshit further concentrating wealth in the fewest hands, at the same time just as dependent on central authority to sustain and protect it. I have to say theoretically because although BT has found a way to more than compete with real-world mining in regard to ecological damage, it can't actually replace money, is good for about 1/1,000,000 of the transactions it's actually supposed to replace, is literally impenetrable to the understanding of about 99% of everyone and basically a bubble sport for fanboys.

You write so authoritatively on a subject which you claim is literally impenetrable to 99% of everyone, while proving in every other phrase of this rant that you are very much one of those 99% who don't understand it. Congrats.

Check out this interview with Jack Mallers, founder of Strike, to learn more about Lightning and Bitcoin's real settlement capabilities.

"The people of El Salvador" -- thanks for the laugh! This is the president who introduced a bill in 2019 to give more gear and greater powers to the police and army, which required a $109 million loan from the U.S. (curiously obtainable only in U.S. dollars). When the measure met with overwhelming opposition in the parliament, he ordered it occupied by the army and demanded they vote with the soldiers present. He held a rally in which he told his supporters God had told him he was doing the right thing, during a prayer session immediately before. Even the State Department backed off that, and the Salvadoran Supreme Court ordered a stop to such actions, which he appears to have followed for the moment.

Wow, sounds sinister. *looks at envoy of troops still in DC*

I can't pretend to know anything about El Salvadoran politics beyond what's on Wikipedia and neither can you. I do know that the murder rate in El Salvador has dropped significantly since Bukele took office (which, of course, US media subtly pretends is a bad thing, because of the rumored backroom deal with local gangs). I do know that no government on earth up to this point has actively encouraged the use of a private money like Bitcoin. People are turning to it out of necessity. And I know El Salvador isn't the only Latin American country whose citizens are in such a predicament. So for you to pretend like this decision has nothing to do with the people is, to me, what's laughable.

Here's a citizen's perspective. Especially note the local news stories.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/commen ... rify_some/

[Marionumber1]

"The people of El Salvador" -- thanks for the laugh! This is the president who introduced a bill in 2019 to give more gear and greater powers to the police and army, which required a $109 million loan from the U.S. (curiously obtainable only in U.S. dollars). When the measure met with overwhelming opposition in the parliament, he ordered it occupied by the army and demanded they vote with the soldiers present. He held a rally in which he told his supporters God had told him he was doing the right thing, during a prayer session immediately before. Even the State Department backed off that, and the Salvadoran Supreme Court ordered a stop to such actions, which he appears to have followed for the moment.

Wow, sounds sinister. *looks at envoy of troops still in DC*

I hate the term "whataboutism", but if there were ever a time to use it, this would be a good one. Except these aren't even directly comparable situations, because soldiers literally inside the legislature chamber in the middle of a contentious bill in which those soldiers have a vested interest seems quite different from soldiers merely being in the city of DC with no noteworthy ongoing political battle directly relating to them.

And uh, I agree that it makes sense to be skeptical of media reporting, especially about a foreign country, but "The MSM is lying, here's one pseudonymous person on Reddit who tells the real story" doesn't form the most compelling argument...

[JackRiddler]

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So a segment of Salvadorans, for practical reasons and out of desperation, have turned to using Bitcoin as a means for transmitting remittances. Understandable and, under the circumstances, good.

But now the Salvadoran president has presented a bill (not yet law, but maybe the Army can fix any opposition to it in the parliament) that would make BT into legal tender in Salvador. And the U.S.ian BTers celebrate what they seem to see as a fantastic PR coup. But they don't acknowledge that this means little more, practically speaking, than that the Salvadoran government, faced with a reality that is already there -- Salvadorans are using BT for remittances and other payments -- is claiming the authority to track, audit, and tax BT transactions. Whether or not the Salvadoran state will be able to do so, this would be contrary to the BT ideal of a currency that can't be tracked by governments. Presumably a lot of BTers are just thrilled at the perception of legitimacy granted by Salvadoran government recognition (which, again, hasn't happened yet), and haven't figured this out. But some must have by now, including the weepy hoodie guy announcing it to the BT Florida conference in the video I posted.

Recognition of BT as currency by states necessarily signifies attempted control of BT flows by states. Discuss.

Also, a conference I'll be attending:

Fiat-Week.jpg

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[Agent Orange Cooper]

First it was "Bitcoin can't be money because nobody uses it"

Then it was "Bitcoin can't be money because it's too volatile"

Then it was "Bitcoin can't be money because businesses won't accept it"

Then it was "Bitcoin can't be money because governments don't accept it"

You get the idea. Any new goalpost achieved by Bitcoin tends to be ignored or downplayed by the nocoiners, including, apparently, a sovereign government declaring it legal tender and therefore not an asset but a legitimate currency, and not subject to capital gains tax. This means less taxes on users, not more. It will be interesting to see how this affects the US's absurd accounting laws when it comes to BTC (which should be considered a foreign currency if this law passes, and others like it).

It looks like Paraguay will be next: https://twitter.com/carlitosrejala/stat ... 5886132224

The next big move for the nocoiners to brush off will be one of these governments announcing that they have bought BTC to hold as a treasury reserve asset alongside or in lieu of dollars/gold, which will probably happen before the end of the year.

[dada]

Filling out the little marketing questionairre asking me why I closed my account on this thread. It's the matter of where the focus is. Exploitation, in the form of the slavery and sweatshops that keep global economy of mass production humming, is a constant presence. Modern monetary theory romanticizes the idea of money. The result is a theory that puts the focus on the utopian mmt stars, and consuming the media they produce, instead of building a language that shows, to use a quaint term, solidarity with the humans worst oppressed by the mass consumer culture they share.

I guess to put it briefly, it's the difference between Elvis saying about money, "Pericles used it to build the Parthenon—still the most beautiful building in the world." And me pointing out that it was actual people that built the Parthenon. Some of them very talented masons whose names you will likely never know.

[JackRiddler]

Modern monetary theory romanticizes the idea of money. The result is a theory that puts the focus on the utopian mmt stars, and consuming the media they produce, instead of building a language that shows, to use a quaint term, solidarity with the humans worst oppressed by the mass consumer culture they share.

- Engagement with the material is as object of attack, in this case without bothering with the supposed need to first 'know your enemy', but working almost exclusively with projection of tropes;
- personalization: the presence or prominence of given intellectuals within a stream of thought, in this case without engaging any ideas they present, is taken as evidence that they must be cult leaders or 'stars', and anyone reading-viewing the material is a fandom;
- strawmanning by the standard trope of 'aha, the thing that claims to be anti-X is acturally ultra-X', gotcha!; in this case with the evidence being a comment on a board that customer complainant, who showed no interest in learning the material overall, used to characterize the whole as belonging to a set of Very Bad Things.

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[JackRiddler]

AOC, such a valorous conquest of straw arguments that I don't think anyone here made, other than the obvious pointing to the bubble and volatility. Reminds me of your preference for arguing with flat-earthers, since that's easier, right?

I never thought that Bitcoin wasn't money. Sure it's money, in the sense that it can be used as a means of exchange. Miles are money. Gift certificates are money. Some personal credit system we agreed on at the club denominated in coasters and faceslaps is money.

What Bitcoin is not is something that could replace present currency systems, or, if this were so, do so in a way that advances economic justice, reduces labor exploitation, better meets human needs, improves the lot of majorities, or results in greater 'freedom' for majorities.

There's a reason you want to argue with imaginary opponents, rather than deal with the full implications of this:

Recognition of BT as currency [legal tender] by states necessarily signifies attempted control of BT flows by states. Discuss.

As you point out, what differs in Salvador's case is that they are declaring a BTC free-for-all, no capital gains tax. (Was it ever subject to one in El Salvador, have you checked?) No borders for capital, the neoliberal standard, now extended to BTC holders. Again, assuming it passes in parliament, or Prez orders the army back in to the chambers to make sure it does.

All makes sense, as yesterday's announcement was a pitch to a set of investors: Salvador for sale. Which it already was, but recently having trouble finding buyers.

According to the UNCTAD's 2020 World Investment Report, FDI flows to El Salvador accounted for USD 662 million in 2019, a decrease from the USD 826 million of 2018. FDI stock in the country grew to USD 10,1 billion in 2019. ... The textile sector receives the highest amount of FDI into the country.

Foreign investment in El Salvador - Santandertrade.com

Found data for 2019 as presumably 2020 is atypical.

As Salvador is the first country to provide this PR coup for BTC, I expect this will indeed draw investment. Rather than the textile sector, however, I expect investors from the BTC crowd will be more interested in coastal real estate with a stream for water and some high ground for defensive purposes, and recruitment of reliable security and service personnel. Freedom!

(This was what prompted me to post WIlliam Walker's picture yesterday. Sure, it's over the top. For the moment. Sue me.)

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[dada]

To make your claims you have to dismiss my method of learning, Jack. I learn by engagement and discussion with human beings like you and Elvis, not by getting "schooled." If the human beings, who are presenting the theory here - who are literally adevrtising someone else's brand, don't kid yourself - present it in a way that is unappealing to me, then clearly it is not a theory for me.

If I disagree with the presenters, who are actually bright minds and not incapable of expressing opinions clearly, there is no argument in saying that I just don't understand, and if I only just saturated myself in the media, mine eyes would be opened, halleluljah. That is just fandom, I'm attacking a brand you like. Saying the show you just spent hours watching, sucks. It doesn't matter the reasons I've given for saying it. Just my saying that it sucks is what you're criticizing.

[dada]

I like this idea of strawmanning in this context. Like a reverse rumplestiltskin, spinning gold into straw.

I don't want to come off like I'm attacking board members personally, though. My intention is to attack the theory, not personalize it.

[dada]

So I guess you call it strawmanning, I call it emperor has no clothes-ing. I come on saying "the emperor is naked." The hardcore fans say I just don't see the clothes. You know, he's just put xray blinders on, if he would only read this book I keep telling him about, he would see the marvelous ermine robes, too.

[dada]

I should be clearer here about my learning method. It's more hands-on, apprenticeship style for the mechanically inclined, and not classroom learning style. Different strokes for different folks.

But I also learn by schooling, naturally, I have a voracious appetite for the written word. I choose my courses carefully, since there is only so much time in the semester, based on my hands-on experience. The subjects I sign up for and buy the curriculum materials for are the ones that hold my interest, by appealling to my core sensibilities, I guess you can say it is my core curriculum. But I don't go to a school that demands required courses to get my degree, its more gallatin than tish.

edited to add: That last was an NYU reference. Jack knows, he's a new yorker. But for those outside the field of reference, gallatin is more liberal arts style, pick your courses. Tish is "school of arts," with all that entails.

[JackRiddler]

(dada) ...is not really a discussion of mmt, since we're not discussing any of the premises or factual claims except through tangential comments and personal impressions at a remove from these. All the social psychology stuff you bring into it, insofar as it applies, would apply also to practically any other doctrine or organized discipline. It can be true and still wouldn't necessarily speak to the validity of the doctrine or discipline -- in fact, generally it would serve to distract from it.

I also use and sometimes favor intuitive learning, but it has its limits and cannot substitute for a serious consideration of the ideas and the texts we do not yet know, so to speak. Otherwise, everything turns into free-floating signifiers that we arrange as best fits our spidey-senses, and we can reject facts or ideas for little more reason than that we don't like a given face.

So.

MMT is not the same old fiat shit, as someone said above. The same old fiat shit, and the capitalism within which it is a key operating element, are there regardless. These constitute our present political-economic universe. MMT is a challenge to how the reality of the same old fiat shit and capitalism are presented in the hegemonic ideologies of liberals, deficit hawks, libertarians, neoliberals, and goldbugs. It is an understanding that the real-existing money system is the product of institutions and laws, and not the product of an indeterminate social evolution beginning from a mythical barter origin. Value comes from labor and involves exploitation, yes, but the tokens in which it is denominated are issued by a currency sovereign, generally the state. The further creation of these in the form of credit and debt by given entities such as banks and treasuries happens under a well-defined legal framework backed by state enforcement, without which the system would collapse.

The histories of how various money-systems were established are amply available. MMT nowadays has arisen as a descriptive and historical discipline, to start with, and makes serviceable mincemeat out of tropes like the barter myth and the idea that hyperfinflations are produced by printing presses. But mainly a school going under the name of MMT is on the rise because it contests the hegemonic idea that the spending of the currency sovereign must be dictated by fear of a notional 'debt' that is actually only an accounting device, and that this fear is deployed mainly to make the rich richer and the labor more exploitable. Spending by the currency sovereign should, instead, be determined by an assessment of human needs within a framework of objective availability of labor and resources, the material-conjunctural frameworks, and the range for material action.

MMT is also a restoration of how the original issuers of paper money on this continent understood it worked all the way back in the 1690s-1760s. In the absence of specie and under pressure of war they printed money, and backed it by taxing it back, after which they burned the notes. It's nothing that Franklin wouldn't have understood, and often advocated.

(He varied; he was a weathervane as often as he was a lightning rod; but his advocacy of paper money without need of backing in metal was both wise and self-interested, as he was the Great Printer. That he in addition did some bad things and was happy to bargain and compromise with a lot many more bad things didn't really change the truth or lies of particular statements he may have made. His lightning rod, for example, worked, independently of his having held slave auctions at his printing offices.)

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