Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

[stickdog99]

https://www.krone.at/2560315

ironic google translation alerts:

The police reported that the mood was sometimes heated. Several police officers went into the crowd at the Burgring as part of the controls. There were tumultuous scenes, at least one policeman fell to the ground. The demo participants were then pinned down by the emergency services, police officers shielded the official acts. The mood heated up, the first smoke bombs, cans, bottles and other objects flew in the direction of the emergency services. The situation then calmed down quickly and the demonstration continued.

In the early evening there were again dangerous scenes: opponents of measures attacked police officers in the area of ​​the outer castle gate. Bottles and fireworks were thrown, as seen on live images. The police used pepper spray.

Arrests also because of resistance to state power

According to "Krone" information, there were ten arrests and at least ten reports under the Prohibition Act and the Covid Measures Ordinance by the afternoon. The majority of the arrests were for administrative offenses, and three people resisted state violence.

Demonstrators with masks were the absolute exception, Austrian flags - and also German - were on the other hand numerous. Participants caused a stir when they marched through the castle gate onto Heldenplatz at lunchtime to applause with a banner identifying them as police officers. According to information from the APA, these are likely to be German citizens. The police announced that they would be investigating the case.

The ring was closed from Operngasse around noon. Numerous demo participants had also traveled by train or bus from the federal states or neighboring countries. The first identity determinations took place around noon; beforehand, coaches had been randomly checked at the city limits and in the federal states. An FFP2 mask is required in coaches. And even in the case of demos with more than 50 participants, everyone must wear an FFP2 mask, unless each individual has a 2G certificate.

In total, more than 1300 officers have been on duty since the morning hours, both from Vienna and from the federal states, plus police dogs. At the vaccination streets, the security staff were increased and the police presence increased.

[Joe Hillshoist]

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The below sentiment (and comparison to a prior time in history) was strongly frowned upon here just a few months ago. How quickly things change, eh?

And it's far worse now (compared to the 1930s), unfortunately, as it's global rather than isolated to a small subset of nation states.

The silver lining, in my view, is that this madness will reach a plateau/fatigue state faster as the escalations proceed -- none of this is sustainable. The hope is that the majority will snap out of their collective trance-like state sooner rather than later.

This is not a time to sit idly by.

"I was myself to experience how easily one is taken in by a lying and censored press and radio in a totalitarian state. Though unlike most Germans I had daily access to foreign newspapers, especially those of London, Paris, and Zurich, which arrive the day after publication, and though I listened regularly to the BBC and other foreign broadcasts, my job necessitated the spending of many hours a day in combing the German press, checking the German radio, conferring with Nazi officials and going to party meetings. It was surprising and sometimes consternating to find that, notwithstanding the opportunities I had to learn the facts and despite one's inherent distrust of what one learned from Nazi sources, a steady diet over the years of falsifications and distortions made a certain impression on one's mind and often misled it. No one who has not lived for years in a totalitarian land can possibly conceive how difficult it is to escape the dread consequences of a regime's calculated and incessant propaganda. Often in a German home or office or sometimes in a casual conversation with a stranger in a restaurant, a beer hall, a cafe, I would meet with the most outlandish assertions from seemingly educated and intelligent persons. It was obvious that they were parroting some piece of nonsense they had heard on the radio or read in the newspapers. Sometimes one was tempted to say as much, but on such occasions one was met with such a stare of incredulity, such a shock of silence, as if one had blasphemed the almighty, that one realized how useless it was even to try to make contact with a mind which had become warped and for whom the facts of life had become what Hitler and Goebbels, with their cynical disregard for truth, said they were."

Wm. L Shirer in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

Are you serious.

This is nothing like the 30s.

The treatment of Muslims after 9/11 might be but this isn't.

How many anti vaxxer businesses are being trashed by gangs of uniformed thugs? (Not cops but political groups in uniform?) When gangs of vaccinated people start krystallnacht type attacks on the unvaccinated then you might have a point but until then stop the hysterical garbage.

The bad stuff happening now in Austria and the riots in Holland are not the same as Nazi germany. This is its own thing and comparing it to the rise of a regime that murdered fifteen million people cos it didn't like their race or politics is stupid.

If you want to convince people who don't agree with you about this quasi totalitarian stuff happening in parts of the world don't make stupid comparisons to Nazi germany cos people will just laugh in your face. You can respond with "Yeah but this 10% of the mildest stuff that happened there is happening now!" all you like but its still laughable.

You've just highlighted the same propaganda we've been subjected to for decades about recreational drugs, environmentalism, muslims and other immigrants, bikies, hippies, punk rock and heavy metal, Russian election interference and every other moral panic the establishment has shat itself about since the 60s.

[drstrangelove]

If you seperate ends from means, very similar. two-tier society. escalating agenda to dehumanise one tier for the greater good.



To prove means are the same, all you need to do is replace the ends. Replace the term unvaccinated with the term jew. The only difference is people can choose not to be a jew. The science surrounding the danger of the unvaccinated uses the same abstracted logic as the supposed danger of the jews to society.

This is the same ends based society as it was coming on a hundred years ago. The lessons learnt then weren't about ends, but about means. Which have been unlearnt now.

Science once 'proved' not all people were equal. Now, instead, it is 'proving' not all people should be treated equal.

Ultimately it is discrimination based on biological traits. Unvaccinated people have natural immunity which is biologically different from synthetic immunity of the mRNA gene therapy. A better conceptualisation of this would be an attack by those with synthetic immune systems on those with natural ones. The distinction is purely biological. The synthetic immunities believe they are biologically superior to the natural immunities, and that the natural immunities shouldn't have the same human rights because of this. This realisation is daunting.

[stickdog99]

"The 1930s were nothing like the 1930s." typical 1930s person

[drstrangelove]

"The 1930s were nothing like the 1930s." typical 1930s person

I actually appreciate Joe's input. This thread suffers from the same confirmation bias almost all other social media platforms suffer the inverse of in pro-vaccination messaging.

Dissenting voices are precious things, because without them echo chambers become breeding grounds for intellectual laziness.

Joe is pretty much the only one disagreeing with the 5 or so main contributors to this thread.

[stickdog99]

Agreed. Sorry if I crossed the line to incivility.

[Joe Hillshoist]

If you seperate ends from means, very similar. two-tier society. escalating agenda to dehumanise one tier for the greater good.



To prove means are the same, all you need to do is replace the ends. Replace the term unvaccinated with the term jew. The only difference is people can choose not to be a jew. The science surrounding the danger of the unvaccinated uses the same abstracted logic as the supposed danger of the jews to society.

This is the same ends based society as it was coming on a hundred years ago. The lessons learnt then weren't about ends, but about means. Which have been unlearnt now.

Science once 'proved' not all people were equal. Now, instead, it is 'proving' not all people should be treated equal.

Ultimately it is discrimination based on biological traits. Unvaccinated people have natural immunity which is biologically different from synthetic immunity of the mRNA gene therapy. A better conceptualisation of this would be an attack by those with synthetic immune systems on those with natural ones. The distinction is purely biological. The synthetic immunities believe they are biologically superior to the natural immunities, and that the natural immunities shouldn't have the same human rights because of this. This realisation is daunting.

First of all the Nazis didn't just target the Jews. The Jews were the largest racial group. Nazis targeted everyone. Including other Nazis.

And they did it with physical violence and murder. Look at Occupy Spring St. Those people are still there. The state isn't after them. Its not the same.

And frankly the pro vax media doesn't sound like Andrew Bolt talking about Muslims. (To use a cliche you might recognise.) Bolt does ... well did sound like Julius Streiber at stages. You can compare the stuff they have written.

Finally...

Its the same immunity, well slightly different but the bodies response isn't functionally different from a vaccine. Its just trained to recognise very specific proteins whereas after natural infection immunity is trained to recognise more proteins. Europe seems to give natural immunity the same consideration as other places. In NSW it won't matter after the middle of next month.

It makes me wonder who makes these decisions in Victoria and if the have a conflict of interest with Pfizer.

[drstrangelove]

I think our disagreement is on what the future has in store for us. I've changed my view on this issue recently, as I thought we would move on from the pandemic into an endemic, and the restoration of some normality - to me meaning sanity. But winter has come to the Northern hemisphere, and here we are repeating the same cycle, only this time the response has been escalated.

For two years people have fulfilled social needs through social media. Which is to say they've been interacting socially through a process of ideological radicalisation. Ideological radicalisation is the process through which people develop the cognitive dissonance required to believe inhumane means can be used to create humane ends.

If you actually look at political discourse right now, on both sides, it's just people using ideology to justify inhumane treatment of one another. Good and bad behavior is gradually becoming no longer defined by the behavior itself, but rather who it is done by and who it is done to. This is the creation of an ends based society.

The Nazis were lots of things, but at their core they were an ends based state justifying any means to bring society into compliance with its will. It is now the will of scientific caliphates the world over to create societies of purely synthetic immune systems maintained through on-going gene therapy and forced conversion. And the majority ideology of each one has been primed to anticipate then applaud once the time comes for governments to say, enough is enough, some people can't be reasoned with, and can only be dealt with in otherwise unreasonable ways.

The only logical conclusion to an ends-based society is a final solution.

Progressive movements in my city have already conflated resistance to vaccination with fascism. As in, being against vaccine mandates, vaccine passports, and a two-tier society. . .is actually fascist. They cannot cognitively make a distinction between belief and behaviour. They think if you believe the right things your behaviour is right. That if you believe the wrong things your behavior is wrong.



This world is insane. But there is hope in that this was what the brownshirts were protesting against:

[Belligerent Savant]

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drstrangelove summed up much of my sentiment on this (the comparisons to 1930s Germany). There's a reflexive reaction to such comparisons, understandably, but the core psychological/conditioning mechanisms are very similar to what we're witnessing currently.

The Nazis would have never succeeded in their Crimes Against Humanity without the complicity and support* of the people. Why did the the German people largely comply (particularly during the earlier stages/years leading up to the 'final solution' escalations of the Nazi reign)?

*the people's complicity and support eventually waned/diminished as the Nazi agenda became clear, but by then it was too late. The people already agreed to many of the changes to laws/policy, etc.

There was a collective sentiment already in place -- latent or otherwise -- among the people during that timeframe in Germany's history that allowed an entry point for Nazism to flourish. But as mentioned before, it didn't happen overnight. The conditioning and escalations were incremental over time.

The German people were primed, at that time, to succumb to (skillful) conditioning methods.

Here we are now, with social media and the internet as additional tools, along with populations -- generally -- with less historical context and critical thinking skills than in years past. The ability to manipulate and even control sentiment has been developed incrementally over time, and this time period (the last ~5 yrs or so) -- and the covid campaign most explicitly -- are the apex of machinations in place for years.

(This is not to say there's a grand conspiracy here, certainly not by any single entity. But at a minimum, coordination among factions seems increasingly likely, albeit with disagreement on particulars and also factors/developments wholly out of anyone's control, particularly for a campaign of this scale)

Covid is far from the only 'control mechanism'; it's merely the most recent and blatantly overt.

Similar methods are applied in other areas -- Re: race, gender, monetary autonomy, etc -- to largely great effect, though the Covid Campaign's scale is certainly unprecedented.

I do share a hope, though, as I touched on before. Social media/the internet are a double-edged sword: it offers great opportunity for control and conditioning, but also, as seen with the coordination of global, large-scale protests around the world, it allows for unprecedented organization among dissenters, and an ability to obtain information across regions much faster than ever before.

The propaganda may be more egregious and pervasive, but so are the People's countermeasures.

This allows us to hope that overt control attempts, regardless of scale and funding, cannot endure as long as they may have historically.

[Belligerent Savant]

.
To bolt on to the above:

@JeffWellsRigInt
·
Feels as though many friends and family with whom until quite recently I'd thought shared similar values to mine are months if not weeks from saying "He's right through there, officer."

11:20 AM · Nov 21, 2021
...

Germans in the Thirties, so long as they could document that they were the right kind of people and were careful not to get radicalized, thought shit was pretty cool and normal.

That could never happen again.

2:25 PM · Nov 20, 2021

https://twitter.com/JeffWellsRigInt/sta ... 33157?s=20

And:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 40-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext#%20

COVID-19: stigmatising the unvaccinated is not justified

Günter Kampf


In the USA and Germany, high-level officials have used the term pandemic of the unvaccinated, suggesting that people who have been vaccinated are not relevant in the epidemiology of COVID-19. Officials’ use of this phrase might have encouraged one scientist to claim that “the unvaccinated threaten the vaccinated for COVID-19”. But this view is far too simple.

There is increasing evidence that vaccinated individuals continue to have a relevant role in transmission. In Massachusetts, USA, a total of 469 new COVID-19 cases were detected during various events in July, 2021, and 346 (74%) of these cases were in people who were fully or partly vaccinated, 274 (79%) of whom were symptomatic. Cycle threshold values were similarly low between people who were fully vaccinated (median 22·8) and people who were unvaccinated, not fully vaccinated, or whose vaccination status was unknown (median 21·5), indicating a high viral load even among people who were fully vaccinated.2 In the USA, a total of 10 262 COVID-19 cases were reported in vaccinated people by April 30, 2021, of whom 2725 (26·6%) were asymptomatic, 995 (9·7%) were hospitalised, and 160 (1·6%) died. In Germany, 55·4% of symptomatic COVID-19 cases in patients aged 60 years or older were in fully vaccinated individuals,4 and this proportion is increasing each week. In Münster, Germany, new cases of COVID-19 occurred in at least 85 (22%) of 380 people who were fully vaccinated or who had recovered from COVID-19 and who attended a nightclub.5 People who are vaccinated have a lower risk of severe disease but are still a relevant part of the pandemic. It is therefore wrong and dangerous to speak of a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Historically, both the USA and Germany have engendered negative experiences by stigmatising parts of the population for their skin colour or religion. I call on high-level officials and scientists to stop the inappropriate stigmatisation of unvaccinated people, who include our patients, colleagues, and other fellow citizens, and to put extra effort into bringing society together.

[Belligerent Savant]

.

While I'm here, the following is a mindset I aspire towards, with mixed results.

Consider, Grasshopper



Probably the best summary I've yet seen of the strategy I'd recommend for getting through the current multifactorial mess...

https://ecosophia.dreamwidth.org/158535.html

[Elvis]

Those with specialised knowledge (and so nothing else)

Specialized knowledge precludes general knowledge?

[Belligerent Savant]

.

I typed above:

I do share a hope, though, as I touched on before. Social media/the internet are a double-edged sword: it offers great opportunity for control and conditioning, but also, as seen with the coordination of global, large-scale protests around the world, it allows for unprecedented organization among dissenters, and an ability to obtain information across regions much faster than ever before.

Saw this shortly afterwards:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity ... 56352-TtgC

The attached video is Rome tonight
Link: https://lnkd.in/gw3m6rSz

In Australia — possibly the largest protests since the Vietnam war. This is just Perth: https://lnkd.in/gdu9GYWW

Zagreb, Croatia — 10s of thousands:
https://lnkd.in/g7Gwyku9

Austria — 10s of thousands:
https://lnkd.in/gAu56Vdm

London: https://lnkd.in/gMFewDHm

Paris: https://lnkd.in/gqFMunn6

[drstrangelove]

Those with specialised knowledge (and so nothing else)

Specialized knowledge precludes general knowledge?

precludes general understanding. in fact it replaces general understanding with general knowledge the more specialised it becomes. which is why highly specialised experts are generally pretty credualous outside their fields. they tend to believe things work how they ought to work, not how they actually work. which is why they like authoritative knowledge, like the New York Times, in which they can read daily about how things ought to work.

iif you confront them with an alternative theory to their general knowledge, they'll call it a conspiracy and proceed to explain to you how things ought to work. and in great detail to.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I think our disagreement is on what the future has in store for us. I've changed my view on this issue recently, as I thought we would move on from the pandemic into an endemic, and the restoration of some normality - to me meaning sanity. But winter has come to the Northern hemisphere, and here we are repeating the same cycle, only this time the response has been escalated.

For two years people have fulfilled social needs through social media. Which is to say they've been interacting socially through a process of ideological radicalisation. Ideological radicalisation is the process through which people develop the cognitive dissonance required to believe inhumane means can be used to create humane ends.

If you actually look at political discourse right now, on both sides, it's just people using ideology to justify inhumane treatment of one another. Good and bad behavior is gradually becoming no longer defined by the behavior itself, but rather who it is done by and who it is done to. This is the creation of an ends based society.

The Nazis were lots of things, but at their core they were an ends based state justifying any means to bring society into compliance with its will. It is now the will of scientific caliphates the world over to create societies of purely synthetic immune systems maintained through on-going gene therapy and forced conversion. And the majority ideology of each one has been primed to anticipate then applaud once the time comes for governments to say, enough is enough, some people can't be reasoned with, and can only be dealt with in otherwise unreasonable ways.

The only logical conclusion to an ends-based society is a final solution.

There is a lot there I agree with. One major difference between the Nazis and Australia is the lack of violence. nazi's were violent thugs. Australia is no where near as violent as it was when I was young. Melbourne used to be considered one off the most violent cities on earth, and when got there in 1982 from Hobart it was less aggro than Hobart.

Progressive movements in my city have already conflated resistance to vaccination with fascism. As in, being against vaccine mandates, vaccine passports, and a two-tier society. . .is actually fascist. They cannot cognitively make a distinction between belief and behaviour. They think if you believe the right things your behaviour is right. That if you believe the wrong things your behavior is wrong.



This world is insane. But there is hope in that this was what the brownshirts were protesting against:

Its weird. And disturbing how the people I'd hope were progressive are drifting to totalitarianism. vaccine madates and the coersion associated with whats happening in Victoria is fucked up imo. (But here in NSW we are ending that two tiered society in two weeks. it will be interesting to see if that lasts thru the outbreaks that will come next winter.)

But at the same time there are fascists involved with that lot.

There are alot of Neo fascists Nazis in the groups that organise this stuff. They are trying to generate any legitimacy they can. Blair Cottrell is always trying to generate a media profile and he is a dangerous cunt. Anyone who runs an organistaion called the United Patriots Front in Australia is sus as by definition. No two ways about it.

That other media fella Rukshan.... he's an idiot. Hanging out with people who would beat him to a pulp if they knew there would be no consequences for their actions. Its fucken ridiculous tho that the people who there protesting against racism decided to have a go at him on the weekend. White people hassling black people is never a good look. (Even tho racism is the basis for the Sri Lankan civil war, so you can't assume people are pure cos they're black.)

Avi Yemini, the Ozraeli, who does also alot the media for these protests is a former Israeli soldier who used to brag about shooting Palestinians and has called himself a "Jewish Nazi" in the past. Tho there is also a fair chance he is working with ASIO to identify the most radical and prone to violence among these protestors. He was a sniper and operated in Gaza iirc.

These aren't good people, whatever the motivation of the tens or hundreds of thousands of people who joined them on the weekend.

Even that politician of Turkish descent is alleged to been associated with the Grey Wolves, based on opening some clubhouse or something that is associated with them. But then ethnic politicians have to appeal to their ethnic base as well, its just how they operate so he may not be aware they are sus as.

Its a big complicated mess. And it wouldn't be anywhere near as messy if our medical regulators didn't seem to be in the pocket of Pfizer.