Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:22 pm

https://archive.md/rG3Qh

Abstract

mRNA-based vaccines provide effective protection against most common SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, identifying likely breakthrough variants is critical for future vaccine development. Here, we found that the Delta variant completely escaped from anti-N-terminal domain (NTD) neutralizing antibodies, while increasing responsiveness to anti-NTD infectivity-enhancing antibodies. Although Pfizer-BioNTech BNT162b2-immune sera neutralized the Delta variant, when four common mutations were introduced into the receptor binding domain (RBD) of the Delta variant (Delta 4+), some BNT162b2-immune sera lost neutralizing activity and enhanced the infectivity. Unique mutations in the Delta NTD were involved in the enhanced infectivity by the BNT162b2-immune sera. Sera of mice immunized by Delta spike, but not wild-type spike, consistently neutralized the Delta 4+ variant without enhancing infectivity. Given the fact that a Delta variant with three similar RBD mutations has already emerged according to the GISAID database, it is necessary to develop vaccines that protect against such complete breakthrough variants.


In other words, there are already COVID-19 variants in the wild that are more infectious to the vaccinated than to the unvaccinated.

Who could have possibly suspected this "ironic plot twist" other than any trained virologist?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:25 pm

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:28 pm

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:38 pm

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:52 pm

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:29 pm

Last edited by stickdog99 on Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:23 pm

It's a really interesting project to go back and look at all 313 pages of this thread. It's really interesting to see which players were the first to push directions and where certain detours were taken that got solidified.

It's ironic because Wombat did some of his best writing earlier on this thread. But his messaging, always equally so nuanced and straightforward as well as willing to be blunt without being an asshole kind of got lost to whatever this thread is even about now.

I can't even follow the various bendings over backward here.

The sum total of all this writing now appears to be a logically inconsistent and super hostile critique of anyone who fails to agree with a hypothesis that is flatly nonsensical. Lots of righteous important observations are stitched into that hypothesis. But IME its the first time this board ever even had a unified hypothesis without an at least equally sized number of dissenters.

People write stuff here like "MRNA worshippers" and it just makes me fucking sad.

I disagree with like half of what's written here and yet I have no trouble seeing that a bunch of arrogant Epstein-level fuck techno-utopianists chose to throw all their cash on this being MRNA's big moment in the sun, that it would succeed wildly, become open to all sorts of uses and make the rich richer.

Nor do I have trouble seeing that it failed and the MSM is a fetid carton of the milk discovered at the back of the fridge untouched after two years.

I'm still more or less on your side.

I just live in a place where I've seen people die in large numbers unambiguously due to COVID (unless hey you're willing to blame poor Black Americans for their propensity to chronic environmental disease or, alternatively lionize them for their unwillingness to vax due to Tuskegee etc).

I'm currently worried af about a dear obese Black friend conspiracy theorist who is convinced COVID isn't real. He's got hypertension, is surrounded by cases and has had strokes and will likely die if he gets infected. Should we blame it on him? Further proof of the conspiracy of "counting" deaths as COVID that are *really* caused by those other factors?

And stay in line with the assholes at Off-Guardian who are, also, using this as their moment in the sun to grow their following?

Out in the world off RI there's thousands or 10s or 100s of thousands who agree with nigh all that is said here about disaster capitalism and power consolidation etc but would laugh at the abject, insular and flatly bizarre mistrust in, say, virology or the little coterie of effusive and aggressive posters (people I have no problem admitting I still adore and appreciate and refuse to rewrite my affection for based on this whole stupid episode) who are flat out positive there's a giant lie at play in the basic science of the virus.

Duh, yes - fuck the response if anyone's allowing the creation of different classes based on vax compliance.

But FFS, I can tell you that I live in a place in the US where

1) I've never once been asked for my vax card (non MRNA)
2) every vax mandate has the widest berth of exemption imaginable
3) noone is forced to wear a mask even under mandates and
4) at this time pretty much all of my city acts like the pandemic is over.

Tyranny? Huh? Where? Not here. Other places sure. But not here.

Fuck Fauci -- because he's a prick who supported GOF research, not because of COVID in particular.
Fuck Biden - because he's a racist pig and political opportunist.
Fuck Trump - he's fucking Donald Trump FFS.
Fuck Pfizer - look at their labor history in Latin America. Look at they bullied non-MRNA vax out of the marketplace.

Fuck every asshole who's dealing with their mental fatigue and depression by acting out a Manichean power passion play by performing the role of "the good" simply because they got a vaccine and so castigate those who don't. They’re the worst.

But fuck every fool who thinks Mercola and a spot of broccoli and sunshine is going to cure them too.

Fuck anyone who has dealt with their fear and fatigue by growing every more and more convinced they are in a small minority who's right and part of some counter-conspiracy intelligentsia. That shit’s never ture.

Whatever happened to that great piety for the unknown which once lived here?

Whatever happened to the pleasure of dabbling in it together mostly in a way that was still relatively nice or at least funny.

And you know, fuck none of these people (excluding Fauci, Trump and Biden) because every last one of us is dealing with a mentally exhausting bullshit fuck this scenario, no matter how you slice it.

And somedays it just feels like everyone finds their take, attaches to it like a life raft, and hold on at all cost. It's really just not that different whatever the position.

In the end, that's what I, for one, mean when I say MAGA - we all know we're fucked (mostly due to climate and mostly unconsciously aware only) - tweaking the terms of reality and trying to find solidarity with others in those tweaks so we feel just a little safer.

So Elvis quoted me in that question about RI/MAGA and I left because it wasn’t remotely what I meant. To clarify - I did not *remotely* meant that RI is a directly TRUMP friendly board. But that MAGA is a nice shorthand for – *fascism is everywhere now and at risk of attaching to any of us and affecting how we treat others and stifling discussion and entertaining some seriously bullshit ideas because we've stopped trusting anything.*

Ah well, Mac and BS and S99 - I can think of posts by each of you that I've LOVED and really been affected by for the better over the years. And for that matter I really like each of you which is pretty much why I just stay away to avoid fighting with you.

I'm glad you exist in this world.

I'll probably cut out again after this and go back to working on mutual aid projects. Anarchists are a royal PITA sometimes, maybe even most, but at least there's a naive and sometimes successful attempt to care directly for one's neighbors without bias.

True love to all and after the collapse, you're more than welcome to share my food and drop by for a shower or whatever else I can offer to help.

PS. A horribly sad and shocking RIP to the wonderful Cordelia with whom I exchanged many sweet messages over the years. She was such a good soul.
"It's not rocket surgery." - Elvis
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:03 pm

.

Cheers, Liminal -- we may be closer aligned on this topic than you realize, at least in certain respects.

One thing, though; when you type:

I just live in a place where I've seen people die in large numbers unambiguously due to COVID (unless hey you're willing to blame poor Black Americans for their propensity to chronic environmental disease or, alternatively lionize them for their unwillingness to vax due to Tuskegee etc).


Have you considered how many of those lives would have been saved if they received proper early treatment (no, not broccoli, but something along these lines: https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/), as an alternative to leaky, flawed "vaccines"?

Unfortunately such treatments are largely suppressed and/or shunned by many doctors/hospitals.

I can attest first-hand to the benefit of these protocols. As mentioned here before, both my wife and I got covid a few weeks ago. We're both in our 40s, unvaxxed. We both had relatively mild flu-like symptoms, and after 2 weeks of treatments (which included Ivermectin) we were practically symptom-less (neither of us are obese, which of course is a factor). We're far from alone, of course. Many others -- MOST -- survive covid, unvaxxed. over 99% survival rate, which is even higher for those under 70.

I understand the same may not apply for everyone -- we all have our unique health profiles, after all, which also happens to be a key factor in my staunch opposition to forced vaccination: there is no "one size fits all" approach to health, and therefore, no "one size fits all" approach should ever be mandated, ESPECIALLY if the mandated treatment is NOT sterilizing and does NOT prevent spread or contagion AND has statistically significant near-term side effects which includes DEATH.

How many lives would have been saved if all were provided the option of off-label/alternative yet demonstrably effective treatments directed by a doctor?

Instead, most were told to stay home and only check into a hospital once symptoms were severe, at which point they were drugged and ventilated at higher-than-standard pressure levels.

And if/when they unfortunately pass, it's checked off as a "covid" death. Tragic on numerous levels. Have people died specifically due to covid? Yes. But how many would that be? And how many may have survived if offered different treatment protocols? How reliable are these official covid death stats? Do they justify current measures once all factors are soberly assessed?

Also, you have my envy that mandates/restrictions aren't tight in your hood. I live in the greater NYC area. It's a fascist dystopia. NYC is not alone in this regard, of course.

As you point out, there are less restrictive locales. I may need to relocate to one of them soon. But how does this lessen the egregious wrongs of current policies/mandates? It doesn't.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:07 pm


Automated external defibrillator, right?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:06 pm

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/a-sudden-cardiac-arrest-can-affect-anyone-vancouver-to-place-1-000-aeds-throughout-city-1.5705376

'A sudden cardiac arrest can affect anyone': Vancouver to place 1,000 AEDs throughout city

Emily Silva
CTV News Vancouver Journalist

Updated Dec. 13, 2021 6:14 p.m. EST
Published Dec. 13, 2021 1:56 p.m. EST

The City of Vancouver approved a motion earlier this month that will place 1,000 Automated External Defibrillators (AEDs), as well as first aid supplies, throughout the city.

According to a news release, the motion was brought forward by St. John Ambulance B.C. & Yukon as part of their Start Me Up B.C. Program, which seeks to fill the gap when it comes to the accessibility of AEDs and other first aid supplies.

AEDs are electronic devices that can help restart someone’s heart if they’re experiencing cardiac arrest.

The group said that each stand installed throughout the city will include an AED, as well as a naloxone kit and a first aid kit.

According to Ken Leggatt, COO for St. John Ambulance B.C. & Yukon, there are about 40,000 sudden cardiac arrests annually in Canada.

“Of those 40,000, about 6,000 are in B.C. each year,” Leggatt told CTV News. “A sudden cardiac arrest can affect anyone at any age, in any location.”

According to the news release, Vancouver currently has 75 AEDs across the city, but they are mainly located inside buildings with set hours.

The stands that will be part of the Start Me Up B.C. program will be temperature-controlled and weather resistant, allowing them to be placed outside or inside and be available 24-7.

St. John’s Ambulance has already placed 10 stands across the city, in various locations including their head office on Cambie Street, several SkyTrain stations, Crescent Beach, and Townsend Park.

The stands are also protected from any theft, containing an alarm that will go off whenever the cabinet is opened. It will immediately notify a St. John Ambulance staff member by phone and a camera will also take a photo of the person accessing the stand.

“We have high hopes about this program and believe it will make a positive impact when it comes to the willingness of bystanders to respond during emergencies,” said Ty Speer, CEO of St. John Ambulance B.C. & Yukon in the news release. “AEDs, naloxone and first aid has saved so many lives, these stands will help save many more.”

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:50 pm

stickdog99 » 21 Dec 2021 06:22 wrote:https://archive.md/rG3Qh

Abstract

mRNA-based vaccines provide effective protection against most common SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, identifying likely breakthrough variants is critical for future vaccine development. Here, we found that the Delta variant completely escaped from anti-N-terminal domain (NTD) neutralizing antibodies, while increasing responsiveness to anti-NTD infectivity-enhancing antibodies. Although Pfizer-BioNTech BNT162b2-immune sera neutralized the Delta variant, when four common mutations were introduced into the receptor binding domain (RBD) of the Delta variant (Delta 4+), some BNT162b2-immune sera lost neutralizing activity and enhanced the infectivity. Unique mutations in the Delta NTD were involved in the enhanced infectivity by the BNT162b2-immune sera. Sera of mice immunized by Delta spike, but not wild-type spike, consistently neutralized the Delta 4+ variant without enhancing infectivity. Given the fact that a Delta variant with three similar RBD mutations has already emerged according to the GISAID database, it is necessary to develop vaccines that protect against such complete breakthrough variants.


In other words, there are already COVID-19 variants in the wild that are more infectious to the vaccinated than to the unvaccinated.

Who could have possibly suspected this "ironic plot twist" other than any trained virologist?


How do you get that take away from that particular paper?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:04 pm



This is great.

There are AEDs all over the place in NSW and they have been there for a decade for precisely this reason. Anyone can have a heart attack anywhere and at any time. Even the unvaccinated, Covid naive (ie never been infected) people have heart attacks and AEDs increase their chance of survival.

AFAIK there has been a "worldwide" (ie in rich western countries) process of placing AEDs (with verbal instructions for use recorded in them) in public for the best part of the last decade.

How do you know that this move is due solely to mRNA vaccines and not part of that ongoing process?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:28 pm



Why is it all or nothing. Are you saying vaccines don't protect anyone against infection or stop anyone from transmitting the virus.

If vaccines work to stop people getting infected 50% of the time that still has an effect that protects others (as well as the vaccinated person.)

Are you saying covid vaccines give no protection at all against covid infection?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:00 pm

.
Quick drive-by to add this before hopping back offline:


https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/ther ... nmark?s=08

there's something antigenic in denmark: boosters show negative vaccine efficacy for cases

denmark has begun providing very specific daily case counts split out for the omicron variant. i think many are misinterpreting this data due to an idiosyncrasy of how it is presented. below i will address this issue and provide what i believe is a way to mitigate it.

cliff notes:

vaccines, including boosters are showing strong negative efficacy vs omicron

this is consistent with omicron being as OAS enabled escape variant

omicron continues to show evidence of mildness relative to past variants

for this analysis, i relied upon the danish national data published HERE and HERE.

for % vaccinated by date, i relied on our world in data HERE

the key danish data is this:

Image

from it, many have made claims like: OMI is 78.7% in the fully vaxxed and yet they are 77.5% of the population, thus, there is no efficacy. similarly, claims of boosters are 10.3% of cases yet the boosted are 25% of the population, thus boosters ARE working vs omi are being made.

unfortunately, neither and especially the latter can be supported by this data. the problem lies here in the fact that the data is aggregated since nov 22.

boosters were only about 10% then. this huge change in prevalence (especially given the rate of change in boosters) makes normalization across the period impossible, especially as overall disease prevalence varies as well. thus, comparing 10.3% to 25% is meaningless

Image

we can get around this issue by slicing the data more finely. to this end, i took the data from the prior day’s report which was through dec 13

Image

we can then subtract this data from the next day’s data and, voila, we have the data for a single day.

Image

this, of course, tells us nothing about vaccine efficacy without knowing the vaccine prevalence, but having narrowed this down to one day, we can now extract a value from OWID. i used 12/14 which will maximize the likelihood of showing a vaccine efficacy signal by using the highest possible base population. (this is almost sure to overstate efficacy as the actual contagion was likely a week or so before the report but as this is impossible to calculate with precision and just adds new error and assumption, i’d rather give all benefit of doubt to vaccines)

from this, we can then calculate VE by normalizing each case count to the size of the relevant sub-population. for convenience sake, i then normalized them to “per 100k population.”

and we get this:

Image

from which we can calculate vaccine efficacy (VE)

Image

this are, clearly, NOT good numbers. fully vaxxed more than doubles your relative chance of contracting omicron.

booster appears to mitigate this, but a lot of that benefit may be illusory because of the benefit we gave it by choosing to use the 25% boosted figure from 12/14. if we use the figure from a week earlier when contagion likely occurred it drops to 18% boosted which, in turn, drops VE to -75% and we get this:

Image

so that looks to be the reasonable range to consider: based on this data, those vaccinated and boosted have between a 26% and a 75% greater chance than the unvaccinated of contracting omicron. (though, at least it’s a little better than the whopping 154% increase in risk for the double vaxxed though how durable that proves to be is anyone’s guess…)

this data, while not dispositive, is strongly consistent with and supportive of omicron as “the variant that leaky vaccines with overly narrow immuno-training begat.” this is OAS. this is exactly the the outcome you’d expect from pinned and non-adaptive immune system training and not what you’d see from simple full vaccine escape.

simple vaccine escape would result in ~0% vaccine efficacy. but this looks like vaccines are making the virus MORE infective (as we saw in so much UK data). that’s going to be either OAS or ADE, and i’m nor really seeing the signs of ADE (like higher severity) while many of the markers of OAS (like failure to generate N-protein antibodies).

this is, if not a smoking gun, at least quite a warm one. (alas, unlike what john lennon promised us, it brings no happiness. this is very much the outcome that no one wanted.)

jeez, don’t you have any good news?

well, actually, yes.

some perspective:
of course, this is not as horrific as it looks when you look at absolute risk increase. double vaxxed is 0.047%, up from 0.0186%. this is not exactly “holy moly, grab my bio-bunnysuit!” territory.

and, of course, that’s cases, not anything inherently severe.

of interest, deaths in denmark look to be dropping as omi spreads, reinforcing once more that omi is a much milder variant. all data i have seen imply this is true among vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. this implies it’s a property of the pathogen, not the inoculant, and this is born out by the sudden drop in deaths as it propagates. presuming this holds, this is what you want, it’s nature making a vaccine and a variant going fully endemic, mild, and becoming another common cold.

Image

to be sure, this data has significant limitations.

it is society scale and non-randomized. we have no idea what selectors are being applied to the risk groups and how they, on balance, generate risk bias. perhaps the vaxxed and boosted skew old and so do cases, but based on this, it does not seem to be the case for omicron.

Image

perhaps the unvaxxed are generally sicker and higher risk for covid. perhaps they are more likely to have already had covid and thus be at lower risk. this one has been very hard to balance out anywhere and i doubt if anyone knows the answer to any degree of precision.

it’s also new data to me from a new source and we sliced it very thin as this is a young series. i’ll look to update it and track this further and see if we can tease out any further confounds over timeframe and possible simpson’s paradoxes by age, risk etc.

as ever, we do the best we can with the data we have, and the data is a bit of a mess, but at least the danes look to making an effort at real and honest reporting, which is more than one can say for the US data.

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby PufPuf93 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:24 pm

stickdog99 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:22 pm wrote:https://archive.md/rG3Qh

Abstract

mRNA-based vaccines provide effective protection against most common SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, identifying likely breakthrough variants is critical for future vaccine development. Here, we found that the Delta variant completely escaped from anti-N-terminal domain (NTD) neutralizing antibodies, while increasing responsiveness to anti-NTD infectivity-enhancing antibodies. Although Pfizer-BioNTech BNT162b2-immune sera neutralized the Delta variant, when four common mutations were introduced into the receptor binding domain (RBD) of the Delta variant (Delta 4+), some BNT162b2-immune sera lost neutralizing activity and enhanced the infectivity. Unique mutations in the Delta NTD were involved in the enhanced infectivity by the BNT162b2-immune sera. Sera of mice immunized by Delta spike, but not wild-type spike, consistently neutralized the Delta 4+ variant without enhancing infectivity. Given the fact that a Delta variant with three similar RBD mutations has already emerged according to the GISAID database, it is necessary to develop vaccines that protect against such complete breakthrough variants.


In other words, there are already COVID-19 variants in the wild that are more infectious to the vaccinated than to the unvaccinated.

Who could have possibly suspected this "ironic plot twist" other than any trained virologist?


If you had been paying attention and not listening to people out to confuse you, what is occurring is what the big risk was about in the first place. Corona viruses were known and researched and were considered a risk to humans because of the ability to mutate. The initial idea was to stamp out spread by slowing spread and social distancing, masks, etc.; like putting out spot fires prior to becoming a conflagration where the firefighters back off to hopefully a secure boundary and hope for the best. Perhaps this was never feasible in the first place. If humans are fortunate and cv19 becomes less important as the virus goes endemic, there will be other more dangerous viruses plus war, lack of natural resources, climate change, etc. to reduce the human footprint on Earth.
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