Russian-Ukrainian War: Live Thread

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Zelensky blasting NATO

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:39 am

.

Attacking them for abandoning Ukraine and refusing to consider a no-fly zone (i.e., one step from nuclear war), which a lot of people on Twitter seem to want.
https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status ... 1483419650

Olga Tokariuk
@olgatokariuk
In his latest video address, Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky blasts NATO for its refusal to impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine, says it's a sign of weakness. Says the only assistance Ukraine received so far through NATO procurement system is 50 tons of diesel
384.7K views
0:18 / 0:45
1:21 AM · Mar 5, 2022


No reason for hope but the one I maintain every time he attacks NATO for abandoning them and plays angry with the grievances against the useless West is that this would be a political set up for turning around and negotiating surrender terms without having a right-wing coup against him. (There's further right than him, as we are aware.) 'We had no choice, left alone...' If it's actually an option he and his government have in mind. No reason to think it, however, other than that it would be logical.

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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby drstrangelove » Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:31 pm

Ukrainian source, google translate used:
The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) shot dead a Ukrainian negotiator in Homel during his detention, sources said
During the detention, the Security Service of Ukraine shot dead a member of the Ukrainian negotiating delegation in Gomel, Denis Kireev. He was suspected of treason.

- https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2022/03/5/7328458/
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:38 am

This is a first, isn't it? A tech billionaire intervening personally in an ongoing war to provide vital material resources and technical assistance to one side.

From the Liveblog of Sunday, March 6, 2022
Zelensky thanks SpaceX chief for access to Starlink satellite-internet system
By AP Today, 6:27 am

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky thanks SpaceX chief executive Elon Musk for giving Ukraine access to his company’s satellite-internet system, called Starlink.

“I’m grateful to him for supporting Ukraine with words and deeds,” Zelensky says in a tweet. “Next week we will receive another batch of Starlink systems for destroyed cities.” He jokes that they discussed possible space projects, which he would talk about “after the war.”

Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko on Saturday showed off a shipment of the Starlink systems that had arrived in the capital city. He said Starlink would help secure the work of critical infrastructure and the defense of the city.

Several large Ukrainian cities remained without internet or phone connection after being shelled by Russian troops.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... et-system/


Elon Musk has greater power and wealth than many nation states, but I presume he is to all intents and purposes a CIA employee. Starlink could certainly not have been created and maintained without the full approval and cooperation of NASA, NSA, CIA, USSF, etc.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby drstrangelove » Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:31 am

I'm so sorry for posting this.

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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:58 am

Via Bezos/DOD News:

U.S. and allies quietly prepare for a Ukrainian government-in-exile and a long insurgency

The Ukrainian military has mounted an unexpectedly fierce defense against invading Russian forces, which have been dogged by logistical problems and flagging morale. But the war is barely two weeks old, and in Washington and European capitals, officials anticipate that the Russian military will reverse its early losses, setting the stage for a long, bloody insurgency.


A mountain of horseshit crammed into the opening paragraph, I can only admire the craftsmanship.

The ways that Western countries would support a Ukrainian resistance are beginning to take shape.


Which is not true, of course: we have archived detailed discussions about "the ways" in question right here at RI.

Officials have been reluctant to discuss detailed plans, since they’re premised on a Russian military victory that, however likely, hasn’t happened yet. But as a first step, Ukraine’s allies are planning for how to help establish and support a government-in-exile, which could direct guerrilla operations against Russian occupiers, according to several U.S. and European officials.

The weapons the United States has provided to Ukraine’s military, and that continue to flow into the country, would be crucial to the success of an insurgent movement, officials said.


This is very smart strategy, although it may seem risky: under the Geneva Convention, when you give munitions and weapons to one side of a conflict, the other side is forbidden from using them even if they manage to intercept shipments or seize them outright.

The Biden administration has asked Congress, infused with a rare bipartisan spirit in defense of Ukraine, to take up a $10 billion humanitarian aid and military package that includes funding to replenish the stocks of weapons that have already been sent.

Should the United States and its allies choose to back an insurgency, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky would be the pivotal force, officials said, maintaining morale and rallying Ukrainians living under Russian occupation to resist their powerful and well-equipped foe.

The possible Russian takeover of Kyiv has prompted a flurry of planning at the State Department, Pentagon and other U.S. agencies in the event that the Zelensky government has to flee the capital or the country itself.

“We’re doing contingency planning now for every possibility,” including a scenario in which Zelensky establishes a government-in-exile in Poland, said a U.S. administration official, who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive security matter.

Zelensky, who has called himself Russia’s “target No. 1,” remains in Kyiv and has assured his citizens he’s not leaving. He has had discussions with U.S. officials about whether he should move west to a safer position in the city of Lviv, closer to the Polish border. Zelensky’s security detail has plans ready to swiftly relocate him and members of his cabinet, a senior Ukrainian official said. “So far, he has refused to go.”

Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Zelensky, declined to describe any contingency plans Ukraine was making in the event that Russian forces capture the capital.

“One can only say that Ukraine is preparing for the defense of Kyiv as purposefully as Russia is preparing for its attack on Kyiv,” Podolyak said.

“This war has become a people’s war for Ukrainians,” he continued. “We must win the war. There are no other options.”


That is not an option. The two primary options available to UKR are 1) negotiate with Russia from a position of weakness or 2) make their local conflict into a world war. They will continue trying #2 until they are forced to face #1. Likely next week.

Volodymyr Ariev, a member of Ukraine’s parliament from the opposition European Solidarity party, expressed confidence that the Rada, Ukraine’s parliament, would continue to be able to meet despite the wartime situation and noted that many lawmakers remain in Kyiv.

“In our party, we didn’t discuss any plan of evacuation, because we don’t want to give up,” Ariev said. “We are not in this government, but we have arms, and we will fight against invaders here, together with the people. This is the only plan we have — no evacuation, nothing.”


Inspiring stuff; also directly contradicted by statements already made in this exact same article.

Nevertheless, European diplomats, like their American counterparts, are starting to prepare for how to support the Ukrainian government if Kyiv falls or the country is entirely occupied by Russia. A United Nations resolution this past week condemning the invasion, which drew 141 votes, is one element of “laying the groundwork” to recognize Zelensky’s administration as Ukraine’s legitimate government and to keep it afloat even if it no longer controls territory, said a senior European diplomat.

“We haven’t made a plan yet, per se, but it would be something we would be ready to move on right away,” the diplomat said. “In our experience, it helps to know generally you have international support.”

As early as last December, some U.S. officials saw signs that the Ukrainian military was preparing for an eventual resistance, even as Zelensky downplayed the threat of invasion.

During an official visit, a Ukrainian special operations commander told Rep. Michael Waltz (R-Fla.), Rep. Seth Moulton (D-Mass.) and other lawmakers that they were shifting training and planning to focus on maintaining an armed opposition, relying on insurgent-like tactics.

Ukrainian officials told the lawmakers that they were frustrated that the United States had not sent Harpoon missiles to target Russian ships and Stinger missiles to attack Russian aircraft, Moulton and Waltz said in separate interviews. The United States diverted some military aid to Ukraine that it had planned to send to Afghanistan, but that package mostly included small arms, ammunition and medical kits meant for a fight against the Taliban, not Russia, said Waltz, who served in Afghanistan as a Special Forces officer.

As the Russian military struggles with logistical challenges — including fuel and food shortages — Waltz anticipates that the Ukrainians will repeatedly strike Russian supply lines. To do that, they need a steady supply of weapons and the ability to set improvised explosive devices, he said.

“Those supply lines are going to be very, very vulnerable, and that’s where you really literally starve the Russian army.”

Moulton, who served in Iraq as a Marine Corps infantry officer, said that he is in favor of sending Harpoons and Stingers — the administration has decided to send the latter weapons, according to a U.S. official and a document obtained by The Washington Post — but that using them also will require training.

“You can’t ship them to Ukraine at the last minute and expect some national guardsman to pick up a Stinger and shoot down an aircraft,” he said. Continuing a resistance campaign will require continued clandestine shipments of small arms, ammunition, explosives and even cold-weather gear.

“Think about the kinds of things that would be used by saboteurs as opposed to an army repelling a frontal invasion,” Moulton said.

Officials remain cautious about overt support for a Ukrainian insurgency lest it draw NATO member countries into direct conflict with Russia. In Moscow’s eyes, support for a Zelensky government operating in Poland could constitute an attack by the alliance, some officials warned.

But Ukraine’s leaders and its citizens aren’t likely to be deterred by NATO’s concerns.

“I doubt very much that the Ukrainians will not continue an underground resistance campaign even after the Russians establish control,” said a senior Western intelligence official.

Moscow has “grossly underestimated Ukraine’s ability to resist,” the official said. “I’m reminded, especially by my eastern colleagues, about Ukrainians themselves. Ukrainians were some of the fiercest fighters … for the Soviets during World War II.” He predicted that a resistance would continue for months and possibly years.


Asinine. RUS has no need to hold Kiev for "months and possibly years."

The United States has backed and fought against successful insurgencies. Veterans of such conflicts say that the Ukrainians so far have demonstrated the key ingredient.

“The number one thing you have to have is people on the ground who want to fight,” said Jack Devine, a retired senior CIA officer who ran the agency’s successful covert campaign to arm Afghan fighters who drove out the Soviet military in the 1980s.

If Russian and Ukrainian negotiators who have been meeting near the border in Belarus reach some settlement, that will likely diminish the momentum for an insurgency and support for it, Devine predicted.

Marta Kepe, a senior defense analyst at the Rand Corp. who studies resistance movements, said that they often change during the course of a war.

“As occupation progresses and extends for a longer time, what can start out as a more centralized resistance often changes into smaller resistance groups or units. It is not a negative thing,” she said. “In fact, smaller groups allow more resilience.”

NATO policymakers admire the spirit of the Ukrainian forces, but they also say that their ability to hold out against Russia is not unlimited, especially as stocks of ammunition dwindle and the Russian military extends its encirclement of major cities.

“Russia has more troops than Ukraine,” said a second senior European diplomat. “Ukrainian troops are very brave, but they are already fighting more than a week.”

Experts in resistance and urban warfare said Russian occupation forces will try to squeeze supply pipelines and cut off cities.

Rita Konaev, director of analysis for Georgetown University’s Center for Security and Emerging Technology, said Ukraine should be preparing its citizens for combat in cities accompanied by mass air and artillery bombardment, which Russia will use to try to reduce the amount of door-to-door fighting that taking cities requires.

Konaev said that Ukrainians should also lay in supplies in advance, because Russian forces will likely disable the electrical grid and cut off access to water in the cities, and that they should establish safe areas underground to survive the aerial bombardment.

Once Russian forces try to move into the cities, Ukrainians will have an advantage because they know the terrain, she said. They can build barriers, destroy bridges to limit entrances into the city, and place snipers on rooftops.

“In urban warfare, defense has the advantage,” Konaev said.

European leaders have been trying to game out what Russian President Vladimir Putin would accept as a potential end state for a defeated Ukraine. Policymakers say they don’t have a clear sense, although the first European diplomat said that Putin might attempt to reduce Ukraine “to a much smaller state.”

Under that scenario, western Ukraine would remain independent. The other territories would be incorporated into Russia, occupied, or declared independent states, as the Kremlin has already done with the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

But Russia’s ability to impose that vision is “most improbable,” the diplomat said, given the profound anger in Ukraine against the Russian invasion.

“This is a country of 40 million [people],” the diplomat said. The Kremlin “can try to have a strategy. But I think in our strategic calculations we are always forgetting one small obstacle, and that’s the will of the people. Putin has forgotten how to be elected in a democratic way.”


That last sentence broke my occipital lobes and I am unable to furnish any further comment.

NATO leaders also say that even if Russia captures Kyiv, that would not end the resistance, nor the existence of the Ukrainian state.

“Russians cannot occupy all the country and subdue it,” said Latvian Defense Minister Artis Pabriks, whose country maintained a diplomatic service in exile for 51 years after it was occupied in 1940 by the Soviet Union. Washington never recognized the annexation of the three Baltic states.

“There will be a partisan war, there will be resistance. So even if Kyiv falls that does not mean the end of the war,” Pabriks said.



Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:05 pm wrote:
“All that stuff that happened to us in Afghanistan,” said the former senior intelligence official, “they can expect to see that in spades with these guys.”


BEER OUT MY FUCKING NOSE
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:35 am

Numerous credible reports, from French reporter Anne-Laure Bonnell and others, that Ukrainian forces are attacking their own civilian population, especially (but not only) in the "Russia-friendly" eastern provinces. Film evidence too. Will post later.

ON EDIT: Warning: Graphic.
Dead civilians in bullet-ridden cars. We're told this is at an exit checkpoint near Mariupol and that they were killed by "radicals"/"Ukrofascists". Smartphone film, 1m 8s. At the end, the couple filming (and trying to help, despite their panic) also come under fire.

Mambo @ ...
3:04 pm. · 3. March 2022

Sensitive images⚠️One of the most horrific and immersive scenes I've seen since the conflict began.

Ukrofascists are shooting at civilians on the outskirts of Mariupol.

The husband and wife tried to leave #Mariupol, at the exit near the checkpoint with the radicals they noticed the shot bodies, they wanted to help, but fire was also opened on them from the checkpoint.

They tried to escape, as a result, the woman was killed, the driver was wounded, now he is hiding with relatives in the Berdyansk region.

https://twitter.com/ ...


No idea who is behind this Twitter account (his sigline is "Very rich people dictate to me what to post"), but it has existed since January 2016 and he appears to be on the ground in Ukraine. Many graphic film clips of killed and captured Russian soldiers, wrecked buildings and tanks, "looters" being tied to lampposts and beaten, dead and wounded civilians, etc.

[on edit: I deleted the link, because it feels like posting war porn. The account isn't hard to find.]
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:52 am

That clown and tool Zelensky has penned the entire male civilian population under 60 inside the Ukraine, handed out guns to them, and told them to resist the Russian army. He is sending them to the slaughter and our trusted Leaders are calling him a hero.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:38 pm

The Charge of the Right Brigade
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby alloneword » Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:13 pm

The picture that I'm seeing emerge from a multitude of assorted Russian language media/Telegram channels over the last few days is one where the Russian Forces (with their established air superiority and clear advantage in firepower) are desperately trying to facilitate the evacuation of civilians from the urban areas, so they can employ the aforementioned in finishing the job without incurring a further humanitarian catastrophe and the poor optics which that would provide, whilst the remaining Ukranian Forces are trying desperately to ensure the opposite.

This appears to take the form of RF encircling an area (e.g. Mariupol), The UF positioning equipment in populated areas, The RF pausing their advance and negotiating 'humanitarian corridors' (to both Russian held and Ukranian held territories) whilst the Ukranians continue shelling and use the pause to regroup, either failing to inform the civilians of the evacuation route, or (according to Russian MoD/RT, in the case of the Mayor of Sumy) telling them that they'll be shot if they attempt to escape via these routes (as in the video that Mac had the good taste not to post).

In other words, 'Human shields'.

The Russia MoD claim to have been monitoring (via drone) the arranged marshalling points for evacuation during cease-fires, but that no convoys have been formed.

Now, obviously my sources here are biased to say the least, but I'm scratching my head to come up with any perceived tactical or strategic reason why the Russian Forces would want to either prevent the evacuation of civilians or initiate cease-fire 'agreements' for that purpose if they didn't want them out of the way.

(For those with Telegram, the RU MoD post is here).
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby Gnomad » Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:38 pm

Today in finnish news it was said that Russia has agreed to open routes for civilian evacuation only to either Russia or Belorussia.
Ukraine wants corridors to Poland or Lviv, and does not want civilians to go to Russia, and has not agreed to the Russian route.

Obviously evacuation to Russia would be portrayed as civilians willingly fleeing to Russia and would be used for propaganda for Putin.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:24 pm

Gnomad wrote:Today in finnish news it was said that Russia has agreed to open routes for civilian evacuation only to either Russia or Belorussia.


By contrast, at least some of the German and UK press reported that the Russians proposed six corridors, including two to TheWest™.

Gnomad wrote:Obviously evacuation to Russia would be portrayed as civilians willingly fleeing to Russia and would be used for propaganda for Putin.


Obviously evacuation to TheWest™ would be portrayed (by TheWest™) as civilians willingly fleeing from EvilPutin™ and would be used for propaganda against Russia. Indeed, it already has been and is still being used that way. I don't know how the Russians are portraying it, because since yesterday I've been forbidden to know.

Imagine if some civilians in that huge war-torn country might be evacuated most quickly and safely across borders actually close to them.

Imagine, too, if some Ukrainians had good reason to fear their own government and army, their alleged protectors. It doesn't require imagining. Ask almost anyone in Donetzk or Lugansk, and not just there.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby alloneword » Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:51 pm

(@Gnomad - sorry, cross-posted with you, Mac)

The Russian MoD appear to be suggesting otherwise...

Russian MoD 7/3/22 - 21.22 GMT wrote:In order to conduct a humanitarian operation:
➡️ 1. From 10:00 a.m. (Moscow time) on March 8, 2022, the Russian Federation declares cease-fire and is ready to provide humanitarian corridors:

from Kiev and adjacent settlements to the Russian Federation through the territory of the Republic of Belarus to Gomel city with delivery by air to the Russian Federation, in the southern direction - in agreement with the Ukrainian side;

from Chernigov through the territory of the Republic of Belarus to Gomel with delivery by air transport to the Russian Federation, in the southern direction - in agreement with the Ukrainian side;

from Sumy by two routes to Poltava and to the territory of the Russian Federation to Belgorod - then by air, rail and road transport to selected destinations or temporary accommodation, in the southern direction - in agreement with the Ukrainian side;

from Kharkov to the territory of the Russian Federation to Belgorod - then by air, rail and road transport to selected destinations or temporary accommodation, to Lvov, Uzhgorod, Ivano-Frankivsk - in agreement with the Ukrainian side;

from Mariupol by two routes to the territory of the Russian Federation to Rostov-on-Don through Novoazovsk and Taganrog cities, to Zaporozhye - in agreement with the Ukrainian side.


Aren't the places in bold still under Ukranian control? The 'in agreement with the Ukrainian side' presumably invites them to propose their own route into the area controlled by them, rather than the Russian Forces dictating a route.

I'll post the rest of the Russian MoD's message, as you're unlikely to see it reported, or be able to access it yourself:

➡️ 2. This statement should be immediately brought to the Ukrainian side (Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine Irina Vereshchuk) proposed to coordinate the specified routes and the start time of humanitarian corridors by 03:00 a.m. (Moscow time) on March 8, 2022, and to submit written approval of these approaches, including guarantees to ensure security on the declared routes of humanitarian operations by the Ukrainian authorities to the Joint Coordination Headquarters of the Russian Federation for Humanitarian Response in Ukraine by the specified time.
The Ukrainian side have to publish this statement in Ukrainian and Russian languages in Ukrainian media by 03:00 a.m. (Moscow time) on March 8, 2022.

➡️ 3. This statement (in Russian and English) should immediately be brought to the attention of the embassies of foreign states, relevant structures of the UN, the OSCE, the ICRC and other international organizations through all available information resources, including the media.

➡️ 4. The Ukrainian side should also inform, in accordance with the established procedure, about the planned humanitarian operation before 03:00 a.m. (Moscow time) on March 8, 2022, representatives of the embassies of foreign states, specialized structures of the UN, the OSCE, the ICRC and other international organizations located on the territory of Ukraine, through all available information resources, including Ukrainian media.

➡️ 5. For the purpose of implementation of measures for the evacuation of civilians and foreign citizens along agreed routes during the humanitarian operation, from 09:30 a.m. (Moscow time) on March 8, 2022, organize continuous communication between the Russian and Ukrainian sides for the mutual exchange of information on the preparation and carrying out the evacuation of civilians and foreign citizens.

➡️ 6. This emergency statement is subject to immediate publication and communication to all interested parties through all available information resources, including media.


I'm not a religious person, but I pray this helps ensure the safety of those now trapped in a hell not of their making.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:05 am

@RudyHavenstein

[groaning noises]

Image

https://twitter.com/RudyHavenstein/stat ... BOr3MhZNqw



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Killing half the people on Earth would lower carbon emissions.

Should killing half the people on Earth be considered ESG-friendly?

Discuss.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby Gnomad » Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:12 pm

It would be quite unusual for civilians to voluntarily flee to the attacking country, in a war. Usually they try to go the opposite way... Anyone have any examples of such a situation in history?

Todays news said that now Russia has agreed to open corridors towards Poland as well.

Refugees have started to arrive in Finland too, also several civilians have organized buses to Polish-Ukrainian border, and are bringing people here.
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Re: Russian-Ukranian War: Live Thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:16 pm

Barring some spectacular escalation, things are looking more or less over and the NGO borg is dialing everything back.

United Nations bans staff from using ‘war’ or ‘invasion’ regarding Ukraine

Email on communications policy reminds staff of their responsibility to ‘be impartial’


Remarkable how much all of the current threads have converged into one single vortex: COVID, bioweapons labs, Epstein, WEF, Russiagate, Ukraine, Economic Crash, Supply Chains...
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