Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 30, 2024 1:55 pm

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I'll add this here as well. I've no delusions that RFK Jr isn't compromised (certainly he's yet another politician that supports vile acts by the Isreali govt, etc), but the following is great/needed messaging from a major political figure, whatever the underlying objectives may actually be.

@RobertKennedyJr

I am an old-school environmentalist -- a lover and protector of nature. The Democrats obsess about counting CO2, while neglecting urgent issues such as the chemicals in our food, soil, and water. Ironically, many carbon-motivated environmental policies actually harm the environment. Offshore wind damages marine animals, especially whales. Mining for lithium, coltran, silver, copper, rare earths etc. to make batteries is laying waste to vast ecosystems. I have found to my surprise that many people on the Trump team, including President Trump himself, care about the same environmental issues I do. Furthermore, these issues can help to unify our nation -- because almost everyone wants clean air, water, food, and soil. Almost everyone values thriving ecosystems and wildlife. Environment was a unifying issue in the 1960s, supported by Democrats and Republicans alike. I am committed to reviving that consensus in the next Trump administration.

11:38 AM · Aug 29, 2024
·
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https://x.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/18 ... 0763146714
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby DrEvil » Fri Aug 30, 2024 4:11 pm

And oil rigs and coal mining doesn't? His environmental record is the one thing I respect him for, but this just sounds like pandering to his new base, now that he's fully aligned himself with the fascists.
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Elihu » Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:34 pm

i'm trying to figure out where you're coming from. Right now I don't know if you simply disagree with the science, or if you think we can't change the climate
the science is beside the point. listen to yourselves
That's only for central England. You can't extrapolate local climate to the whole world
demonstrates anthropogenic induced warming, with warming in the late 20th century greatly exceeding the natural Milankovitch warming cycles.
The second slide can be much more clearly understood by watching "Earth Orbits & Ice Ages" ... Britt shows the global temperature for the last 10 or so glacial cycles trending down (yes, down) as India crashed into the Eurasian plate, creating the Himalayas, causing CO2 levels to plummet. It may be that we now understand how the Earth froze solid at least two times in its deep past.


laws, judges, cops, tax collectors, prison guards and executioners are not scientific instruments. why are you so blind to that fact?

and you just glibly ignore the possibility that in your crusade you could inflict massive harm to billions of people (and making a small minority rich and powerful). what good would it do even if we could hail the science ilk into the dock to answer for it? none. i see people wanting to solve science problems with politics as almost criminally insane.
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 30, 2024 6:03 pm

DrEvil » Fri Aug 30, 2024 3:11 pm wrote:And oil rigs and coal mining doesn't? His environmental record is the one thing I respect him for, but this just sounds like pandering to his new base, now that he's fully aligned himself with the fascists.


Yes they do, and regardless of which tech/process is more net harmful over time, 2 wrongs don't make a right. And the other important point: oil rigs/coal mining don't ALSO involve calls for various forms of austerity measures/efforts to control populations directly via policy.

Additionally, Re: "aligned himself with the fascists":

THE FASCISTS ARE OVERTLY AND BRAZENLY HERE ALREADY. Anyone that didn't -- and still doesn't -- clearly see Lockowns, Mandates and Related Policies as EGREGIOUS AFFRONTS to Human Rights/BLATANTLY TOTALITARIAN/FASCISTIC is disqualified from any future "fascist" rhetoric.

These egregious measures will never be forgotten or forgiven. Rest assured, the entities responsible for pushing/enforcing/carrying out these vile measures -- and many of the rubes/fearful toads that still don't see these measures for what they clearly were -- will try to bring these affronts back (via the next "VIRUS" or "CLIMATE ALARM" or "MONETARY COLLAPSE", etc.) if they are permitted to do so by the collective.
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby DrEvil » Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:32 pm

And the other important point: oil rigs/coal mining don't ALSO involve calls for various forms of austerity measures/efforts to control populations directly via policy.


"Control populations directly via policy". Do you mean "politics"? And what exactly are these austerity measures you're so terrified of? Insulation that would reduce your electricity bill? Phasing out of fossil fuel vehicles? Getting your electricity from *gasp* renewable sources?

And there's plenty of population controls coming from fossil fuels. It's one of the largest industries in the world, and has been for a long time. You think all those trillions of dollars didn't tip the scales on laws and regulations and public projects all over the place (not to mention all the wars and misery all over the world)? I can guaran-fucking-tee you there's all sorts of things in your daily life that have been influenced by oil money, and if not directly in service to the oil industry, in service to the beliefs of the rich fucks who control the oil industry. Example: Rockefeller.

As for the rest of your screaming fit, do you have to obsessively repeat the same damn things in every damn post you make? Message received. Jeez.
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Sep 01, 2024 11:25 am

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ANY austerity measure is UN-justifiable when the premise/justifications for them are predicated/based on LIES and/or highly faulty theories/premises.

Of course "oil money" has influenced culture and modern life (and more recently, Big Pharma + Big Tech + Big 'Climate Alarm' money etc, have all been bigger players in influencing economies & sentiment -- "Big Oil" is far from the lone culprit, despite your tunnel vision). That was hardly the point of my response. The point is -- particularly since the onset of the 21st Century, and more overtly since late 2019 -- there have been clear, highly-funded efforts to extend more brazen & egregious affronts (some of which have already been successful) against populations under false pretenses, and these current affronts surpass those we've already had to endure.

Totalitarianism is making an aggressive push (see Brazil + France as a couple developing examples, and of course the madness from 2020 - ~2022).

You can certainly continue to hold on to these notions that are increasingly losing firm standing.

I repeat the references to the madness of ‘Peak Covid’ In part because it's worthy of being called out whenever applicable. Crimes Against Humanity should never be accepted silently, needless to say. Anyone that values sane social constructs should clamor for accountability at any viable opportunity to do so.

And also because they will be all too eager to repeat such measures the next time they attempt to shove a ‘hobgoblin’ down our collective throats.

Here's some more 'triggering' content for you:

Image
@Charlemagne0814

...this notion that the current operating point is the only legitimate one is beyond silly superstition - it's insane.
https://x.com/Charlemagne0814/status/1830262691648442539


EDiTED to soften rhetoric
Last edited by Belligerent Savant on Mon Sep 02, 2024 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby DrEvil » Sun Sep 01, 2024 9:08 pm

Well, that image was.. something. The first image is the last interglacial, the second is the last ice age, and the third is the present interglacial, aka present day, so pretty much exactly what you would expect if you had any clue about prehistory.

You have heard about ice ages, right? I'm a little confused why you think common knowledge would trigger me*, but if you want to appear ignorant for everyone to see, don't let me stop you.

* Okay, it did, a little bit. When you literally have the collected knowledge of humanity at your fingertips there is no excuse for this level of ignorance. It annoys the hell out of me.

Edit: unless you meant you posting yet another right-wing, thinly veiled racist shithead Twitter asshole would trigger me, then yes, consider me triggered.
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Sep 02, 2024 10:54 am

.
Scrutiny of dominant narratives Re: "climate change" (or ANY dominant/mainstream "science" or "health" issues) has been coded "right wing" for a few years now. Unsurprising to see you're doing your part in playing along with conditioning tactics.

(side-note: if a loathsome "right winger" stated that 1+1 = 2, would he be wrong? Shooting the messenger rather than the message is a common dishonest tactic)

One thing that can NO LONGER be stated, however -- at least if there's an interest in integrity, that is -- is that there is scientific "consensus" with respect to climate change. There most certainly is NOT.

See below for numerous examples.

We see, hear and read a lot about a ‘human-caused climate crisis leading to imminent extinction of life on the planet.’ We hear about the ‘goal of net zero CO2’ or ‘net zero carbon.’

The climate change issue has taken on a religious fervor and crusade in many circles and by millions of people who believe we are on the path to the end of life on earth due to climate change. On the other side of the spectrum are those who dismiss the idea there is a climate crisis at all - much less one caused by humans.

The debate over climate change is hot and heavy. So what’s the truth? What does the true science say?

Scientific Principle #1: The Climate Changes!

The first and most fundamental scientific principle and fact is that earth’s climate has been changing for billions of years. Climate has undergone dozens of volatile ups and downs throughout history, going through several heating and cooling cycles - each lasting thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions of years. And CO2 levels have changed over that time as well.

Here are some graphs illustrating this. Look at the ups and downs just over the past 2,000 years.

Image

Let’s take a little longer look, going back 15,000 years. See how the temperature has fluctuated?

Image

Let’s go back even further, the past 450 Million years. Look at all these cycles of natural heating and cooling:

Image

Here are the heating and cooling cycles over the past 4 Billion years. Also note the dramatic changes in CO2 levels - that are independent of humans:

Image

These are natural (of or related to nature) cycles caused by

- changes in the earth itself,

- the sun and

- earth’s orbit around the sun.

Scientific Principle #2: Pollution vs Climate Change

Pollution is a serious threat to life in the world - but is not a driver of climate change. Toxins and carcinogens dumped into the soil, water and air cause all sorts of harmful effects:

- Medical conditions and diseases such as cancers, respiratory illnesses, blood disorders and fatigue

- Depletion of nutrients in soil, which results in nutrient deficiencies in food, which in turn lead to increases in various illnesses and a general decline in health

- Lower-quality or toxic air and water, the two most important things all life needs to live.

- A deteriorating environment that is less pleasant to live in, which can become foul and depress quality of life.

So pollutants are a serious, life-threatening condition which must be handled and resolved. Rational, common-sense environmental policies are needed, and carcinogenic and toxic products should be banned - for obvious and multiple reasons.

...

We can keep our economies humming with coal, oil and gas-driven systems while employing technologies to absorb and clean the resulting pollutants, preventing them from entering soil, air and water.

Rational environmentalism means applying basic, common-sense policies to prevent pollutants and toxins from poisoning our air, soil, food and water. Tree-hugging, over-the-top, hysterical, radical, extremist environmentalism is unnecessary and counter-productive.

However, as detrimental to health and life as pollution is, the climate isn’t changing because of it.

So the second scientific principle is that there is an enormous difference between pollution and climate change.

The Climate Science

Let’s have actual, legitimate climate experts answer the question: Is there a climate crisis caused by humans?

“There is no climate emergency.” - Declaration signed by 1,860 scientists

https://clintel.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... tid=Zxz2cZ

“There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.” - Declaration signed by over 31,000 scientists and experts
https://defyccc.com/oregon-petition/

There Is No Climate Emergency, Say 500 Experts in Letter to the United Nations

1. Natural as well as anthropogenic factors cause warming.

2. Climate policy relies on inadequate models.

3. CO2 is not a pollutant. It is a plant food that is essential to all life on Earth. Photosynthesis is a blessing. More CO2 is beneficial for nature, greening the Earth: additional CO2 in the air has promoted growth in global plant biomass. It is also good for agriculture, increasing the yields of crops worldwide.

4. Global warming has not increased natural disasters.

5. Climate policy must respect scientific and economic realities.


6. There is no climate emergency. Therefore, there is no cause for panic.”

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/there-is ... d-nations/

“There is no climate emergency. The faux urgency of the climate crisis is giving us no time or space to build a secure energy future… I object to the manufactured consensus for political purposes, a manufactured consensus of scientists at the request of policy makers.” - Dr. and Prof. Judith Curry, one of the world’s leading climate experts
https://judithcurry.com/2022/12/27/the- ... more-29525

“Climate science is awash with manipulated data, which provides no reliable scientific evidence… The false and manipulated data are an egregious violation of scientific method. There is no risk that fossil fuels and carbon dioxide will cause catastrophic warming and extreme weather.” - Prof. William Happer and Prof. Richard Lindzen, climate experts
https://dailysceptic.org/2022/07/11/top ... ght-lying/

“Greenhouse gas effect does not exist.” - Thomas Allmendinger, Swiss physicist

https://www.climatedepot.com/2022/07/26 ... orthodoxy/

“Man-Made Climate Change Does not Exist!” - Dr. Piers Cornyn, astrophysicist

http://www.weatheraction.com/resource/d ... 20exist%20

“The Climate Change Delusion.” - Prof. Ian Plimer, geologist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvnmgI38yFU

“Data show there’s no climate catastrophe looming.” - Dr. Roy Spencer, climate scientist

https://www.drroyspencer.com/global-war ... peratures/

“Inconvenient facts: Actual historical scientific data. Man-made climate alarmism: climate models and speculation. ‘Hobgoblins of alarm.’” - Greg Whitestone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yanR1t-D6Y

“CO2 [is] the gas of life. CO2 is a very essential and natural part of life. We’re being misled into climate hysteria.” - Dr. William Happer
https://www.therightinsight.org/CO2-Saturation

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.03098.pdf

Dr. Ronan Connolly, climate scientist, dispels myths and disinformation about climate change, and provides the full science on what is actually occurring - and has occurred in the past - with the earth’s climate.
https://globalwarmingsolved.com/
https://ronanconnollyscience.com/

Dr. Willie Soon, astrophysicist and geoscientist, debunks climate change propaganda.
https://lweb.cfa.harvard.edu/~wsoon/myo ... TGlink.pdf

“There is NO climate crisis. OVERVIEW of the FACTS:

Human produced carbon dioxide is not causing the climate to change.

The global temperatures and CO2 levels have been changing between extremes for millions of years!

Only 0.3% scientists (not 97%) believe humans are causing climate change!

The amount of human-produced CO2 in the atmosphere is negligible!

Increased CO2 is not causing weather extremes!

CO2 is safe, good and not a pollutant!

“Human produced CO2 is causing climate change" is political!

- https://www.therightclimatestuff.com/

“The climate emergency is fiction. Although ostensibly the IPCC [UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] is a scientific body, the findings of its scientists are frequently distorted and hyped by the government and NGO [non governmental organizations] bureaucrats who dominate the organization. The bureaucrats have played a major role in exaggerating the scientific conclusions of successive IPCC reports and escalating the rhetoric of its official pronouncements.” - Dr. Ralph Alexander, physicist
https://www.scienceunderattack.com/

“Demonizing CO2 and fossil fuels impoverishes humanity, has no impact on climate, negatively impacts the economy, threatens national defense, reduces plant production.
“Mother Nature is the cause of climate change. Human influence is minor. Weather events are not getting worse. Carbon dioxide is GOOD.
“There is no Climate Crisis.”
- Tom Moser, NASA engineer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-gHWcrCK7w

“UN claims that human-caused CO2 emissions are imperiling the planet are totally garbage. CO2 doesn’t cause a change in temperature. Global warming causes more CO2.” - Dr. Edwin Berry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm1CzT0nmHU

“CO2 follows temperature, which, itself, is due to solar activity. During the ice ages, we had great temperature variations, and this has to do with, not straight-up solar activity, but the amount of solar activity that is hitting the Earth at certain important latitudes, all caused by celestial events.”
- Prof. Ian Clark, Dept. of Earth and Environmental Sciences, Univ. of Ottawa
https://www.theepochtimes.com/article/f ... B9Hg%3D%3D

“A ‘climate crisis’ has scant scientific support. Today's climate isn't ‘broken.’ Fears of future catastrophes depend upon extreme scenarios fed into models entirely unsuited to the task

“Precipitous and ill-considered responses to climate fears are a greater threat to well-being than anthropogenic climate change.

“Advocacy for overly rapid global decarbonization is immoral Ill. Overly rapid national decarbonization will be disruptive, expensive, and will degrade national security.”
- Prof. Steve Koonin, climate scientist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acyErLNL7kQ

“Greening Earth & Booming Crops: NASA, IPCC, and the Surprising Story of Climate Change’s Impact on Global Agriculture” - Dr. Matthew Wielicki
https://irrationalfear.substack.com/p/g ... medium=web

“I believe the climate is no longer studied scientifically. Rather, it has become an item of faith.” - Haym Benaroya, distinguished professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at Rutgers University
https://anglicanmainstream.org/meteorol ... emergency/

“It is beyond me why my colleagues would utilize the media to push an unsupported agenda that recent hurricane activity has been due to global warming. I found it a bit perplexing that the participants in the Harvard press conference had come to the conclusion that global warming was impacting hurricane activity today. To my knowledge, none of the participants in that press conference had performed any research on hurricane variability, nor were they reporting on any new work in the field. All previous and current research in the area of hurricane variability has shown no reliable, long-term trend up in the frequency or intensity of tropical cyclones, either in the Atlantic or any other basin. The IPCC assessments in 1995 and 2001 also concluded that there was no global warming signal found in the hurricane record.” - Dr. Christopher Landsea, meteorologist
http://www.landscapesandcycles.net/chri ... -ipcc.html

“The ‘environmental’ movement has become more of a political movement than an environmental movement. They are primarily focused on creating narratives, stories, that are designed to instill fear and guilt into the public so the public will send them money.” - Patrick Moore, founder of Greenpeace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFHX526NPbE

“The U.N. is planning for countries to cut emissions to as close to zero as possible by 2050. The plan is collective suicide. It started with the hysteria of the New Ice Age and a little-known CIA report in 1974 that claimed that a major climatic change was underway. Later, the ‘global cooling’ alarmism morphed into its opposite, by employing the false notion of global warming due to excess CO2 - which is chemically a falsehood.” - Malgosia Askanas, senior research and development associate at Aurora Biophysics Research Institute

article/climate-scientists-say-we-should-embrace-higher-co2-levels-5551562


“While the scientific community has become addicted to blindly using these computer programs to fix the data biases, until recently nobody has bothered to look under the hood to see if the programs work when applied to real temperature data. When we looked under the hood, we found that there was a hamster running in a wheel instead of an engine.” - Dr. Ronan Connolly, climate scientist
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/13/2/285

“NOAA has been criticized for allowing more than 90 percent of its climate stations to be affected by the urban heat bias, The Epoch Times reported in January, citing scientists and a separate study examining NOAA’s temperature records. By 2022, about 96% of the stations failed to meet the agency’s own standards for reliability.” - Anthony Watts, meteorologist.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/article/p ... B9Hg%3D%3D

https://keihatsu.substack.com/p/the-tru ... ate-change
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Sep 05, 2024 10:47 am

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Obligated to share this here as well, as it displays the practical requirements (and 'traditional fuel/energy' usage) of each windmill erected.

Truly a post-satire world. And millions continue to subscribe to this. For now, at least.

@JohnLeePettim13

For every 10 MW of wind power added to the system, at least 8 MW of back-up power must be dedicated. So you’re not saving on fossil fuels and often have to ADD fossil fuel plants to make up for the wind power when the wind isn’t blowing. In other words, wind needs almost 100% back-up of its maximum output. So why are we doing this? Answer: because of huge subsidies and tax breaks. Windmills wouldn’t be built without them. The #GreenEnergy grift.

[TikTok Video of Windmill being built]

...
@PJENVTrucks
·
On average there are 5 tons of copper in every windmill. 10,000 lbs. The CO2 from mining the minerals required for this variable (not 100% reliable) green energy source in addition to the backup generation wipes out the CO2 being saved when the wind blows.

https://x.com/JohnLeePettim13/status/18 ... 1123899739
(click on the above link to view the video)
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Sep 20, 2024 6:43 pm

Image

Putting aside for a moment the reliability (and/or criteria, however valid or flawed) of this presentation:

Temps are now at or around the lowest point ever when comparing against the last several hundred million years.

What we see presented in this image is fluctuations of climate irrespective of (and also well before any) human activity, over the course of time -- I'd say it only further corroborates prior comments I've presented here, eh?

Whatever the cause for these fluctuations, current patterns are NOT driven by the factors claimed by the Alarmists. As such, ANY proposed 'solutions' and/or austerity measures will NOT work (at least not for the advertised purposes; they'll certainly continue to make the very few wealthier while further subjugating the majority, lowering quality of life further -- at least for those that continue to stay on-grid, if these absurd policies are left to persist and expand).
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Hugo Farnsworth » Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:27 pm

Putting aside for a moment the reliability (and/or criteria, however valid or flawed) of this presentation:

Temps are now at or around the lowest point ever when comparing against the last several hundred million years.

What we see presented in this image is fluctuations of climate irrespective of (and also well before any) human activity, over the course of time -- I'd say it only further corroborates prior comments I've presented here, eh?



Nice graph that actually disproves your comments. The old saw about blind men and elephant comes to mind. A picture is worth a thousand words but it creates a thousand opinions.
I agree with you about the weaponization of climate change by the oligarchs, and there is little, if anything, that can be done to mitigate it. I adopted McPherson's "planetary hospice" philosophy. A pessimist is an optimist with the facts.

But it would help if you would watch the video whose link I posted earlier in the thread. Man lives in the one of the coldest periods in Earth's history. When one can walk to the bottom of the stratosphere, it is very very cold. Britt shows the temperature curve from 66 million years ago to the present with more detail (you can see the Milankovitch cycles clearly). But the curve from the WP article is sufficient to show what happened when India crashed into Asia. If we were able to time travel to 50 million years ago, we would die from the heat. Nearly all the species that we live with would also die in that climate. See that little uptick at the end of graph? That's us, and the curve is supposed to be going down. The alarm is that no one knows how far or how fast it will proceed before we go out of existence. Life can adapt to nearly any conditions in Earth's history, given enough time but time is what we don't have.
Without traversing the edges, the center is unknowable.
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:06 pm

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How does the graph disprove my comments? Explain this based on the visual alone -- in your own words -- not based on the official narratives of the quacks referenced in the Washington Times piece.

To repeat:
Climate Alarmism -- as presented to the masses -- is a scam. The reasons for climate fluctuations (on a global scale) are NOT due to (typical, routine) human factors/activities. Additionally, all proposed 'solutions' currently promoted (solar, wind, net zero, et al.), not only are NOT effective AT SCALE but they require extensive use of traditional fuel/energy for their manufacture, maintenance, and support. A small subset are profiting immensely from the 'climate alarm' scam, of course. These 'solutions' will also cause marked harms to the livelihoods of humans (cost of living will be much higher, many more will struggle to maintain basic necessities, etc.), not to mention the imposition of greater control measures.

I co-sign Hitchens' comments below:
@wideawake_media

EPIC: Peter Hitchens exposes the farcical nature of net zero, to the dismay of BBC Question Time panelists and audience members.

"If you want to live in a country where nobody can afford to heat their house... if you want lots of people to lose their jobs because there's no energy, if you want to be cold all the time... then carry on believing that the demand to go for net zero is intelligent and thoughtful."



https://x.com/wideawake_media/status/18 ... 8512273616
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Elihu » Tue Sep 24, 2024 1:13 pm

That's us, and the curve is supposed to be going down. The alarm is that no one knows how far or how fast it will proceed before we go out of existence.


so you admit you don't know.

fear as the basis for action has the highest probability of being an irreversible error.

calling all honest climate scientists. finish the job you've only just begun. Scientists could never want anything but a quantified scientific solution.

here's the problem you have got to solve, and show your work. we need to know, scientifically, through formulas, exactly what gasses need to go where and in what quantities.

here is a sampling of the inputs you will have to work with: 8 billion people, 8 billion cars, 1 billion billion tanks planes and ships, 5 billion buildings large and small, 6 billion lawnmowers and other small ice engines, 50 million factories, 50 million processing plants of various kinds, 5 billion farting livestock, one billion acres of cultivated farmland, etc etc etc.

Scientists have stated their case but they have not attempted to solve it.

this is where the non scientist should keep his options open for the sake of his own life, self defense is absolute, and here it is:

don't even think about dropping this in the lap of politicians and walking away.

That's not science.
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:43 pm

Since when have scientific models of extremely complex phenomena based on limited inputs proven correct?

Is it true that no life can survive the conditions of space or those that exist below the Earth's surface as all biologists once believed?

Is margarine healthier than butter?

Is one part per million the magic amount of fluoride necessary to prevent dental caries while causing zero negative side effects?

Are early universes as small as our most recent models predicted they would be?

Did COVID vaccines and lockdowns save hundreds of millions of lives?

Can our models reliably predict the weather anywhere even as little as a month in advance?

To me, both those who insist that climate change is a proven apocalyptic dilemma directly caused by human activity and those who insist that human activity has no effect on climate change are guilty of staggering levels of scientific hubris. We simply have no conception of the full complexity of all the mechanisms that Gaia uses to regulate its temperature. So why does almost everyone choose to pretend that we do?
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Re: Abandoning rational discussion on climate change

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Sep 25, 2024 8:37 am

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I for one no longer subscribe to the notion that human activity has any notable impact on 'climate change'.

This is not a position I previously held, but I hold it now, for myriad reasons, after several years of assessment.

There is no sound data that points to human activity as a primary driver of 'climate change'.

Faulty models are no longer compelling (they never should have been).

Human activity cause pollution? Certainly. But again, that's not climate change.

It may well be that the Earth is currently undergoing shifts and changes to its climate (and other environmental factors), but to presume that humans are principally responsible for it is highly presumptuous [and not based on objective, sober analysis].

Of course, as with any position I hold, it remains subject to change, and I will take ownership of the extent I (and many others -- this position is now no longer a 'minority' opinion but a growing one, and it includes many in the fields of Science as well) turn out to be wrong.

The actual reasons for any climate fluctuations aside, what remains 'clear as day' is that the 'solutions' offered to 'climate change' aren't scalable and cause net harms rather than benefit (to individual & collective economy, to livelihoods, and to agency, etc), while also transferring ever more wealth to a small few.

But i repeat myself.

It's increasingly apparent that most Presumed "FACTS" presented to the masses in the 20th and 21st centuries -- 'global warming', 'space travel', 'pandemics', among others -- are increasingly being exposed as largely fraudulent.


Subscribing to the notion that less than ~120 years of human industry has somehow caused IMMINENT ALARM and MASSIVE HARMS to the Earth -- an Earth that has handled scores (ages) of great variances in temperature and climate fluctuations -- is where (I believe) Arrogance, Hubris & Naivete reside.*


*Once again, I grant that my position may be wrong, in part or otherwise. I will take ownership of my 'wrongness', to the extent it can be reliably determined within our lifespans.
(I realize this position may create anxiety among those that firmly believe that TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE AND WE MUST ACT NOW TO STAVE OFF DOOM AND PERIL! I'm such a reckless gambler, eh?)
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