Some more 9/11 truth

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:41 pm

Thanks, stoneonstone, for the save on this topic. Here's another forum which chewed on the elevator angle of 9/11 and cited the same now broken link to Elevator World Magazine plus some USA Today tidbits- forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=2490 <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Posted: Jan 1 2006, 08:29 AM Quote Post Unregistered QUOTE "Nobody knows the insides of a high-rise like an elevator mechanic. They act as guides for firefighters, in addition to working on elevators," says Robert Caporale, editor of Elevator World, a trade magazine. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey give the maintenance contract to a small company, ACE Elevator. Then in 1999, ACE Elevator undertook what was perhaps, one of the largest, most sophisticated elevator modernization programs in the industry's history reported in March of 2001. www.elevator-world.com/magazine/pdf/0103-002.pdf On 9/11 instead of trying to save people as emergency plans called for Ace supervisors ordered the employees away from the area and made them look like cowards. QUOTE So right after that explosion, we were ordered to leave the building. There was a story that came out in USA Today that said we all ran out like cowards. The reporter, Dennis Couchin, has been advised as to what had happened and he’s going to rewrite his story. I’m just putting this in right now because I feel it’s necessary, because the men that were there in ’93, most of them, a lot of them were still there. <a href="http://www.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jones.htm">www.recordonline.com/aday.../jones.htm</a> QUOTE USA TODAY found: Elevator mechanics left the buildings. “Eighty elevator mechanics were on duty in the towers that morning, many just a few steps from people who needed rescue. However, the mechanics, fearing for their safety, evacuated on their own initiative when the south tower was struck at 9:03 a.m. A supervisor from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned the World Trade Center, radioed the mechanics about 45 minutes later to say firefighters needed their help. The south tower collapsed as two supervisors were on their way back. “ “But the Port Authority says the emergency plan called for mechanics to stay and help with rescues. "The manuals consider many emergency scenarios and describe the role of the mechanics in detail in responding to them," Port Authority spokesman Allen Morrison says. "There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own. They were, depending on the situation, to be dispatched to various emergency posts or to respond to various passenger entrapments and to assist police, fire and other rescue personnel." <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-0...ator-usat_x.htm">www.usatoday.com/news/sep...usat_x.htm</a> [ QUOTE When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm">www.usatoday.com/news/sep...hanics.htm</a> The same heroes working for Otis that saved people in 1993 leave people to die in 2001.That just does not add up. QUOTE • Newly installed safety devices condemned many people to death. “To comply with building codes, the World Trade Center since 1996 had been adding locks that made it impossible for passengers to force open the doors of stalled elevators. These locks, called "door restrictors," had been added to about half of the 198 elevators in the twin towers. Nobody is known to have escaped from an elevator locked by a door restrictor. The World Trade Center followed a long-established approach to elevator rescues: Leave people inside stalled elevators until professionals can perform rescues. The elevators had three mechanisms, including the restrictors, designed to prevent people from accidentally falling down elevator shafts. An untold number were still trapped when the buildings collapsed.” <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-0...ator-usat_x.htm">www.usatoday.com/news/sep...usat_x.htm</a> QUOTE USA TODAY based its estimate of at least 200 dying in elevators on interviews with survivors, victims' families and emergency personnel, as well as photographs, videos and architectural plans. The information was analyzed in a database. The death toll could have been as high as 400, although the exact number of deaths cannot be known with certainty. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-0...ator-usat_x.htm">www.usatoday.com/news/sep...usat_x.htm</a> Why were the elevator mechanics ordered to leave the building when they were the only ones able to open the doors and left 200-400 people to die? <hr></blockquote>

by **FourthBase** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:47 pm

Wow, salient points Hugh. BTW, not sure if this is the article, but it's from elevator-world: <a href="http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/0111-005.html-ssi">www.elevator-world.com/ma...5.html-ssi</a>

by **FourthBase** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:57 pm

<a href="http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/0103-002.html-ssi">www.elevator-world.com/ma...2.html-ssi</a> I think that's the article. Dated 2/20/01

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:09 pm

According to the many narratives by people who managed to escape the Towers, many of the stairwell doors were...LOCKED. Were they the kind of locks accessed electronically or was this another Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire disaster like the one in 1911 that had women jumping to their deaths? <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri...ctory_fire</a> (The numerologists are gonna eat that up, ay?) Here are a few hundred reports of locked stairwell doors in the WTC on 9/11. One person lucked out and ended up finding keys. <a href="http://www.mjbarkl.com/locked.htm">www.mjbarkl.com/locked.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I would learn later that another coincidence of the day was ending up in the Port Authority office as they had all the keys to all the stairwell doors. One of them would lead us out.<hr></blockquote>

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:47 pm

I see that of the four people mourned by this article that three are key players in the upper management of the elevator project- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Elevator industry colleagues Charles Costello, Jr. of ThyssenKrupp Elevator, >("Charles "Chuck" Costello Jr. was an elevator mechanic with ThyssenKrupp Elevator Co...") Robert Lynch and Francis Riccardelli, both of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, ("Robert "Bob" Lynch, a property manager for the Port Authority at the WTC for 21 years, was responsible for the proper operation of the WTC's 246 elevators and 76 escalators." "Francis Riccardelli, manager of vertical transportation for the Port Authority, was the elevator and escalator expert at the WTC. At the time of the tragedy, he was in charge of the modernization of the vertical transportation equipment in the Twin Towers.") and John Griffin of Silverstein Properties ("John Griffin was a senior vice president for Silverstein Properties overseeing security guards, porters and elevator operations.") were all reported missing...<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.<hr></blockquote> Now here's something interesting about the evening of 9/10- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>CEC had some people originally scheduled to be in the WTC high-rise machine room the morning of September 11, but they instead had decided to work until 10 p.m. the night before to complete the work.<hr></blockquote> Why put off until tomorrow what you can do tonight, right? More on the upgrade project timing and the access points for the many elevators- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The first phase of the elevator modernization project completed by ACE Elevator also won second place honors in the annual Project-of-the-Year awards included in the 2000-2001 SOURCE. A follow-up article detailed the project in the March 2001 issue. <hr></blockquote> Everything you could ever want to know about the elevators at WTC... on edit: disabling those damn emoticons Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 8/27/06 6:13 pm

by **FourthBase** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:49 pm

<a href="http://www.sptimes.com/News/091301/Worldandnation/Decision_to_stay_doom.shtml">www.sptimes.com/News/0913...doom.shtml</a> "Executives like Alan L. Reiss, the director of the World Trade Center, had been working on a transition team with Silverstein Properties that was to last for three months. But in recent weeks, agency executives said, Silverstein Properties asked Reiss to let it more fully operate everything from safety systems to tenant relations."

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:20 pm

Elevator-World.com no longer has any of the WTC articles it used to have. But there is a discussion board where you can search up 'WTC' and get indignant replies to the USA Today article plus some aftermath photos at this given link- <a href="http://www.liveboards.com/mb/server/view.cgi?B=107638&C=30&SID6=&M=6948;board.cgi?B=107638&C=30&S=0&SID6=">www.liveboards.com/mb/ser...&S=0&SID6=</a> One of them is of a steel beam bent into an arc from a PBS web page and I wonder what the metallurgical truth behind this is. Anyone know or do we need to ask Prof. Steven Jones? from- <a href="http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/artifacts/artifacts_09.html">www.pbs.org/americarebuil...ts_09.html</a> caption for the photo below: Twisted Steel For the second chapter — On September 11th — the team sought items to represent the hellish forces unleashed that day. "We saw a lot of pieces like this," said Wagner. "Typically, when steel bends, it buckles and tears. The smooth bend on this piece shows the steel became malleable — a pretty good indication of how hot it was." <img src="http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/artifacts_img_bentsteel1.jpg" style="border:0;"/> caption for the photo below: More Bent Steel "This piece has a ribbon-like quality to it," noted Wagner. "It's like it just crumpled when it hit the ground." Engineers have noted that many of the Towers' girders were contorted into shapes unreplicable by any machine. <img src="http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/artifacts_img_bentsteel2.jpg" style="border:0;"/> caption for photo below: Burned Car Thousands of cars were removed from Ground Zero — some burned beyond recognition, others only lightly damaged. Most cars were taken by barge to Staten Island's Fresh Kills dump where their parts were either salvaged for recycling, or buried. "The rubber had melted away from thousands of tires," said Wagner. "You just saw the steel belts wrapped around the rims." <img src="http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/artifacts_img_car.jpg" style="border:0;"/> source- http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_debris_06.html caption for photo below: Quick Calculations RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running. I did some quick numbers with Gary Panariello, an engineer from Thornton-Tomasetti, to try and determine what the load on WTC 6 was and how much of the lateral system of the building the contractor could take down. There were a lot of judgment calls; people had immediate needs and needed immediate responses. <img src="http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/engineering_img_debris_6.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 8/27/06 7:55 pm

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:18 pm

-also from the Elevator World discussion board where someone asked what metals were in the elevator system so they could figure out where the molten metals came from at Ground Zero. The First Interstate Bank fire in LA on May 4,1988 destroyed floors 12-16 with temperatures going up to "2000 degrees." And yet the 62-story building did not collapse. Yes, no plane damage but that heat with 50 stories of weight on it didn't cause bending and collapse, did it? Built in 1974.  <blockquote>Quote:<hr> * First Interstate’s 12th floor securities-trading room, which normally handles $3-$5 billion per day in transactions, was totally destroyed.<hr></blockquote> Hmm. Wonder if there was a big trading records purge here such as Andrew Grove claims happened at the WTC. The fire sprinkler system was being installed and was 95% complete. Fire started within minutes after the fire pumps in the building were SHUT OFF which hampered initial firefighting. Looks like carefully timed arson, too. The cause was never determined. Hmm... <blockquote>Quote:<hr>INITIAL STAGES At 2222 on the night of the fire, the buildings two fire pumps were shut down by the sprinkler contractor, and the combination standpipe system was drained down to the 58th floor level to facilitate connecting the new sprinkler system to the standpipe at that level. Three minutes later, at 2225, employees of the sprinkler system contractor heard glass falling and saw light smoke at the ceiling level on the 5th floor. A manual alarm was pulled but sounded for only a few seconds. It is believed that the alarm was silenced by security personnel on the ground floor. At 2230, a smoke detector on the 12th floor was activated and was reset by security personnel. At 2232, three additional smoke detectors on the 12th floor were activated and were again reset by security personnel. At 2234, four smoke detectors on the 12th floor were activated and reset. ..... The first six arriving companies were sent immediately to attack the f i r e . The initial attack used primarily 2-inch attack lines. The attack was hampered by low water pressure for the first few minutes, until the building fire pumps were started. <hr></blockquote> Look at the photos and links at these sites and compare to the WTC fires which supposedly did the deed. from- <a href="http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/880504_1stInterstateFire/050488_InterstateFire.htm">www.lafire.com/famous_fir...teFire.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> During the late evening of May 4, 1988, and the early morning of May 5, 1988, members of the Los Angeles City Fire Department successfully battled what has proven to be the worst, most devastating high-rise fire in the history of Los Angeles. Extinguishing this blaze at the 62-story First Interstate Bank Building, 707 West Wilshire Boulevard, required the combined efforts of 64 fire companies, 10 City rescue ambulances, 17 private ambulances, 4 helicopters, 53 Command Officers and support personnel, a complement of 383 Firefighters and Paramedics, and considerable assistance from other City departments. It is humbling and terrifying to realize how close we came to losing control of this fire! Had it not been for the extraordinary commitment to duty, staunch determination to extinguish the fire at all costs, and unabated heroism and courage of our brave Firefighters, I am convinced that the fire would not have been contained as it was in 3-1/2 hours. <hr></blockquote> <img src="http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/880504_1stInterstateFire/050488_interstate_fire_lg.gif" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/880504_1stInterstateFire/1stInterstate_NYBoardofUnderwriters.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/880504_1stInterstateFire/DamiensSkyscraperPage.gif" style="border:0;"/> More info at this pages links reading thusly- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>EXECUTIVE SUMMARY FIRST INTERSTATE BANK BUILDING FIRE LAFD REPORT United States Fire Administration Technical Report AIR OPERATIONS at the WORST HIGH-RISE FIRE IN LOS ANGELES HISTORY By Michael Roy, Pilot III LAFD Air Operations THE FIREMEN'S GRAPEVINE, JULY, 1988 Towering Inferno II -- Still No Movie Version By John J. Fitzgerald Box 4 Fire Buff Club, Dallas, Texas THE FIREMEN'S GRAPEVINE, JULY, 1988<hr></blockquote> Another web page on this 1988 fire- http://www.drj.com/drworld/content/w1_119.htm <img src="http://www.drj.com/drworld/content/Images/world1/wo1_119.gif" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.drj.com/drworld/content/Images/world1/wo1_119a.gif" style="border:0;"/> This event wasn't an unforeseen problem and had been prepared for- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The damage to the building by the time the fire was suppressed at 2:20 a.m. May 5 was extensive: * First Interstate’s 12th floor securities-trading room, which normally handles $3-$5 billion per day in transactions, was totally destroyed. * Temperatures up to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit destroyed mini computers and compatible microcomputers in the bond trading division. * The 11th floor, housing the bank’s securities vault, was completely destroyed by severe water damage. * Some 2,000 First Interstate employees were displaced from their offices. * The main downtown Los Angeles branch, located on the ground floor, was severely damaged by water. The Plan First Interstate had a carefully developed and well rehearsed business resumption/crisis plan with a dedicated business resumption team already in place. The Bank began to develop its intricate plan some two years before the May 1988 fire. The bank allocated millions of dollars to this project and senior management assigned a very high priority to the development of the business resumption plan.<hr></blockquote> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 8/27/06 8:13 pm

by **FourthBase** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:10 pm

The thing is, the planes really fucked up the towers. It wasn't just severing the exterior columns or any interior ones they might have hit, or supposedly knocking off the fireproofing and disabling the sprinklers, or the additional jet fuel that doused the flammable material inside...I think the real damage from the planes was the sheer impact that caused the towers to sway. The towers were monumentally fucked in ways that an "ordinary" burning steel skyscraper wouldn't be. That said, I still think there's reason to think there may have been extra explosives to hasten/trigger the collapse. But like I mentioned above, I wish we could focus just for a little while on the hypothetical scenario that Al Qaeda planted truck bombs in the parking garage a la '93. I think it'd be as revealing an angle as, say, the hypothetical scenario of Al Qaeda blowing up the N.O. levees.

by **FourthBase** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:14 pm

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xToXTufCL5Q&NR">www.youtube.com/watch?v=xToXTufCL5Q&NR</a>

by **FourthBase** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:04 pm

<a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=0#a022693wtcbombing">www.cooperativeresearch.o...wtcbombing</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>An FBI explosives expert later states that, “If they had found the exact architectural Achilles’ heel or if the bomb had been a little bit bigger, not much more, 500 pounds more, I think it would have brought her down.”<hr></blockquote>

by **smithtalk** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:30 pm

i dont think the towers were fucked by the planes, i have seen quite credible calculations that the forces exerted on the buildings in very high wind were way in excess of what a plane could do hitting the tower, they swayed for a couple of seconds upon impact, and then stood still and steady and it still doesnt explain the orderly and effortless total collapse of the buildings into their own footprint, if i had seen forty floors lurch outwards in one direction and collapse partially onto other buildings, and a kind of stuttered collapse of the main part of the buildings, and if i had seen two slightly different collapses from each of the towers, and if wtc 7 hadnt been so totally unbeleivable, i would not have doubted the story, and i would probably have dismissed the whole the conspiracy angle and any concept of rogue sections of the american elite that might be interested in such an effective event, but for me, the day was too perfect, and stunning visuals of the event were too incredible and symbolic, the collapses too quick and perfect and symmetrical, the coincidences too many, and the trails left were too interesting and compelling

by **FourthBase** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:22 am

SMITHTALK: #1 - PEOPLE IN THE BUILDING NEAR THE IMPACTS REPORTED SWAYING THAT FAR EXCEEDED WHAT THEY'D EVER FELT BEFORE, FLOORS THAT SANK, WALLS THAT CRACKED, CEILINGS THAT FELL. #2 - THE COLLAPSES OF WTC1 AND WTC2 WERE IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER "ORDERLY", "EFFORTLESS", "PERFECT", "SYMMETRICAL", OR "IN THEIR OWN FOOTPRINT". I will not allow people to spread that "neat collapse" bullshit here without getting fact-slapped by me. Makes me wonder about the effect that "truthies" have when I see that kind of nonsense pop up. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 8/28/06 10:32 pm

by **smithtalk** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:45 am

take your meds dude, if i wrote that aliens had moon bases in 300pt type it wouldnt make it true, where do these marvellous tales of floors that sank and walls that cracked come from, below the impact points from the people running for their lives down the stairs, and i am sure there was large swaying from the impact, but that doesnt mean that the buildings integrity had been catastrophically challenged and really, 'you will not allow' people to spread 'neat collapse bullshit' who do you think you are, if this were straightforward and provable either way the conversations wouldnt continue in the way they do, and 'fact-slapped'? there wasnt a single 'fact' in yor post, only assertations, by you ego-slapped more like looked pretty neat and unreasonably symmetrical to me

by **AnnaLivia** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:48 am

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Some more 9/11 truth

Re: Elevator upgrades & ACE....

Re: Elevator upgrades & ACE....

Re: Elevator upgrades & ACE....

Re: Speaking of 'keys'

Re: Elevator upgrades & ACE....

Re: Elevator upgrades & ACE....

Re: Elevator upgrades & ACE....

Re: Another high-rise fire that didn't collapse. ARSON.

Re: Another high-rise fire that didn't lead to collapse

More on the '93 angle

Re: More on the '93 angle

Re: More on the '93 angle

Re: More on the '93 angle

Re: More on the '93 angle

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