comment on the notion of "fake Jews"

by ir » Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:00 am

The notion of "fake Jews" originates in Jewish tradition, in which it is still very much alive. (at least in Israeli politics of religion). The story goes, that when the Jews were travelling from Egypt to Kanaan, for around 40 years with MOses, a large bunch of "erev rav" (literally Riff Raff) joined the team and mingled in the crowd. This, according to tradition is a fairly LARGE segment of the nation which prevents the true redemption and causes trouble, corruption and what not. every now and then a political leader in Israel, associated with this or that religious faction/party, invokes the "riff Raff" argument against a rival group, condeming it to be "that group" which should be identified and eliminated in order for the true nation to emerge. The most famous, and rather distasteful, use of this tradition was made by no other than Mr. Netanyahu, during his reign as PM. He was conversing with one of the leading rabbis of a coalition party member, and said that the "left wing" (liberals) Israelis are NOT JEWS at all. --- Since the notion of the riff raff appears in fact in the scriptures (and developed later in post biblical Jewish texts), and used carelessly by rabbis (against each other's groups) - i am not at all surprised that it caught a momentum with the non Jewish community, this actually makes perfect sense. If netanyahu, a Prime Minister in Israel can speak this way, why not others? Be advised also that Netanyahu has a firm alliance with the Evangelical right wing Christians, maybe he thinks they are the "real jews" ? he certainly seems to be giving them very good PR here, and attacking anyone who suggests they are antisemites in a sheep skin. ---

by **Dreams End** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:20 am

Hey IR, The idea of "fake Jews" that I've seen in rightwing conspiracy circles has little to do with that tradition. It is usually centered on the idea that the Kazars, the kingdom that converted to Judaism a thousand years or so ago, are the Jewish pretenders. Other theories vary but the notion is not that it is the riff raff who are the fakes, but it is the Jewish elites who are fake. These "elites" are not well defined, so I think the notion goes beyond just the current crop of rightwingers who run Israel at the moment. These elites are allegedly part of a grand, Jewish-Masonic conspiracy, and the theory of intermarriages with, say, the English monarchy, suggests, to those who believe this theory, that the Monarchy is now somehow the grand architect of the Zionist conspiracy. I think this is primarily originating with Larouche. I've seen Makow talk about it, but I've also see him write about how he's accepting many of Larouche's ideas. Also note that criticisms of Zionism on this board are often not about Zionism at all. Zionism, for good or ill, is the movement and maintenance of a Jewish state. But often, the term is used in a far, far broader context around here...a plan of global domination. The term Christian Zionists is also used, but, again, goes beyond a description of Christian fundamentalists who see Israel as a key to the end times, and includes various elites and government officials...and even the British Crown..as questing for world domination. While I don't, on its face, dismiss allegations that the Crown would be involved in world controlling shenanigans, I can't for the life of me figure why one would call that Zionism. This is why on this board there is often confusion. Criticism of Zionism in this broader sense is made. I call the posters out as representing anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and then they retreat to "look how Israel is treating Palestinians...doesn't that show how bad Zionism is?" Well, I would say that destroying the houses of family members of alleged terrorists, targeted assassinations and running over protesters with bulldozers are bad things. But that has nothing to do with a secret cabal that is running the world. And this is why we often talk at cross purposes. I accept a certain amount of covert elite planning to keep the world safe for capital, but I don't accept EVERY theory that comes along just because it criticizes elites. And no one else should either. WE should be the skeptical enquirers...making airtight cases, not repeating broad generalizations based on ancient "blood libel" myths. Because Jews have so often been scapegoated for the world's ills, its important to oppose it on its face. But as I mentioned on the other thread, an equally important concern on this board is that Jewish power theories (whether based in hatred of Jews or honest acceptance of questionable information) is simply NOT ACCURATE. So it's important to discern context. I actually have softened my stance on real Zionism a great deal in the last year or so as I learned of other aspects of the story of Israel, such as the collusion of the British with fascist elements of the Arab world to harass and even attack Jews in Palestine/Israel. This started even before statehood was declared. And I found a moving pamphlet issued by Jewish working class folks in Palestine urging Arabs not to leave their community and not to allow the forces of hate and division to create emnity. Check out Jared Israel's site for a different take on all of this. <a href="http://emperors-clothes.com/israelguide.htm">emperors-clothes.com/israelguide.htm</a> Here's a quote: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>On December 12, 1947, Foreign Minister Bevin told the House of Commons that the units of the Transjordan Arab Legion would be withdrawn from Palestine. He said: "I was asked a question about the Arab Legion. I should explain that this is a Force, which owes allegiance to the King of Transjordan, but units of it have, for some time, been serving under the orders of the British G.O.C. in accordance with a long-standing arrangement with King Abdullah. It has been decided that all these units will be withdrawn from Palestine at the same time as the withdrawal of the British Forces. That withdrawal will be completed when the withdrawal of the British Forces is completed." <hr></blockquote> <a href="http://emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm#V">emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm#V</a> This doesn't excuse everything Israel does, but the initial story is far more complex than I first understood. Even the whole aspect of how Britain refused to allow Transjordan to be part of the territories granted under Balfour, despite assurances that it would be, led to conflict where...perhaps...conflict could have been avoided. (I don't refer here to "benevolent" plans to relocated Arabs here, but of the possibilities of Palestine and Transjordan both being open to settlement by both Jews and Arabs. A missed opportunity, which was lost due to British schemes to keep friendly monarchs in the region.) Criticism of Zionism as it actually came to create Israel is really criticism of imperialism. One must first ask how Britain came to have Palestine in its power to "give" in the first place. Secondly, the traditional method for imperialist powers to "withdraw" from a country is to screw up the infrastructure and fund destabilizing elements and potential counter-revolutionaries, assuming that the leader of the newly liberated country is not directly in the imperial power's pocket to begin with. This has been the pattern over and over again and I think Israel is no different. Anyway, visit the site if you haven't already. Nice stuff on the protocols there as well...including an answer to that much loved question: "I'm not an anti-Semite, so why do the protocols sound real to me?" <a href="http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/ringstrue.htm#5">emperors-clothes.com/lett...true.htm#5</a>

by ir » Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:38 am

I am aware of the differences. I am aware that the Jews/ Israel are not "at fault" for the plights of the world, and not their own plights (holocaust), but I tend to think in terms of responsibility. namely, I would not blame a woman for being raped, but after assigning guilt to perps would ask if she can point to better responsibility, to avoid the next rape. same goes for Israel. disempowering the Jewish leadership.Israrl, through the notion of a world conspiracy of hatred, which is almost a 'given", metaphysically, might be appealing at first, but I think it is not useful in the long run. the monarchy of UK is called Zionist, because it is there, that Zionism was in fact invented, in the form we know it (political ZIonism). So it stuck with them, and one questions that fact, and fails to receive a good answer. Brittain screwed up the region, as it did India/Pakistan and all else. They supported the jewish settlement ONLY as a means for their colonialism, and did the old divide and rule thing, as they did everywhere and as US is doing now. OK, having said that, and reading you very interesting references on the US Jewish community's response to the impending disaster in germany (divisions and self interested groups advocating different responses to hitler) - well, it would be foolish to repeat the pattern, but this is what is being done now. I didn't find the Jared research ON ISRAEL, reliable, but other stuff could be. The Kazar story is known here, and the Israelis who looked into it got caught in the mists for a while, it is a fascinating story, indeed. I suppose ethnically, many Ashkenazi Jews are Kazarians. Again, I suppose some Mizrahi Jews also believe that theory, that does not make them antisemitic. The Kazarian conversion was "illegal" in terms of halacha, and it brought in elements of questionable culture. Riff raff does not mean poor, rather something like Kazarians, big non Jewish groups who jumped on the wagon. Could be anyone, that's what is appaling about the application of this "theory" today, by various rabbis. What I am saying, again, much of what is picked up by antisemites comes from the Jews, mostly people say like Netanyahu, who when they want power and to undermine political adversaries DO JOIN WITH non Jews to spread half truths, that appeal to those none Jewish crazy groups. These are irresponsible leaders, over the genrations, that power struggles blind them to the point of doing anything against their political adversaries, no matter what. I am sometimes doing that here, to see how easy it is (I am NOT a politician, or person who matters, so this is harmless). Since, what can we do, the world is always very INTERESTED in Jews and Judaism, for better and worse, - most of what I read as antisemitic trash, is a distortion of an EXISTING (and similarly idiotic) concept from within Judaism. Its just an old religion where you can find there awnything you want, bad and good. I agree on one issue with the Jewish Rabbis and mystics, that every trouble the Jews experience, originats in inner corruption and can be best addressed WITHIN. The world is a reflection. So, not verbatim, but you get the gist. Thus, looking for "BAD ARABS" or ANTISEMITES all the time, is less helpful than reading the signs, and addressing the rifts amongs the various Jewish factions, who are wiling to kill each other "to be right" or to "have the power". If they ar ewliling to do it, certainly they'll find helpers outside. Thus I am not enthused with countering every evil notion, rather in for instance looking at people like Netanyahu to be responsible, or rich American Jews to be responsible etc. But eblieve me they are harder to deal than all the Neo Nazis combined on the internet. Check for Spielberg/ vs. mossad rift now, around the silly movie :MUnich. See how it develops into a world war, and how both sides are "enlisting" the whole world to this petty, power struggle, and this is just a little, tiny example. And these are VERY POWERFUL people, which you tend to minimize for some reason. Brittish fascists aside, and they are BAD...but that does not mean some Jews in leadership don't lead us into their hands, for MONEY and POWER they promise them. Again, I repeat the rape image, there are always rapists out there in the street yes good laws are important, but a person has to be responsible for their actinos, right ? so does israel and the Jewish rich leaders. empower the victim, don't go chasing all the bad guys in he world. my take on it, of course. empowerment means checking who is making the decisions, and how they got there. I don't want Abramoff to make crucial decisions, or Lauder and that crowd, and other people of dubious characters running the show, when the wolves are around.

by ir » Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:00 am

You describe yourself as a none jewish disinterested party, with open heart and mind. You said that in the past you held a position against israel/Jews and was appalled to see how powerful is the alure of Nazi themes (as those present in new age of sorts combined with others). I think i know where you are coming from, but be advised that both 'ends' are a metaphore on reality, as "jews" are not "one lot" and so jumping to defend all of them at all times is as mistaken as doing the reverse and blaming all. I am trying through the dialogue here to find a way out of the loop, haven't yet. I just have a very clear sense, there days, that those who pose as concerned with the benefit of Jews (be them Jews or not) are not all sincere about it, and that this is where to look for root causes. --

by **Dreams End** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:22 pm

I don't defend Jews all the time. Primarily on this board I'm interested in the misinformation/unreliable conspiracy theory that has arisen over the centuries and manifests in current sloppy conspiracy thinking. But I've stated that over and over again. I think you'll rarely find me hopping into Zionism threads that are actually about Zionism (e.g. treatment of Palestinians) and defending Israeli actions. Though, as I mentioned, I've tempered my thought on Zionism with new information...and whatever you think of Jared Israel, the stuff on British actions leading up to and just after statehood comes directly from memos, documents and progressive press accounts of the times (The Nation). He mentioned that it's hard to find these Nation articles now. But all that stuff is not just his analysis. You didn't mention what you found unreliable, so I can't comment any further on that. But the threads around here that are actually on Zionism as in current Israeli situation are rare. People want to talk about Zionism when what they mean is Jewish power theory. When I point out that some conspiracy theory or other is just warmed over anti-semite libel, they then resort back to taking offense that they aren't allowed to criticize Zionism, when, of course, that's not what they were doing in the first place. And I know you think I emphasize this too much, but the point is that, within the "internet" world of those doubting the official 9/11 story, there is a HUGE amount of this stuff. One of the most prominent sites is whatreallyhappened.com, which consistently promotes the idea not that israel was simply INVOLVED but that all of 9/11 and the following were planned and controlled by Israel. Comments abound like "will you send YOUR kids to die for Israel?" This is a BIG red herring here. Famous anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan was alleged to have made the "this war is for Israel" statement and it almost discredited everything else she's done, whether or not she actually said it. And if she DID say it, this is exactly why it's important here in the US. It's a device for misinformation and discrediting. To assume that the US is so compromised by Israel that the entire reason for the Iraq war was the simply the instructions of Israel is silly. After all, do YOU feel any more secure since Iraq fell? As for Kazars...I know they existed, but can anyone honestly say they are STILL a separate strain of Judaism WITHIN Judaism, corrupting the rest? This seems unlikely after a thousand years or so. But if they've intermarried, then is not the ENTIRE world of Judaism now "corrupted". This is why this theory also gets us nowhere. Either all of Jewry was tainted (and this is really a matter of racial theory) or still they are a separate strain, secretly controlling Jews and also the world. More silliness.

by ir » Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:49 pm

1. What you mention about jared's information re the formatino of Israel as it is depicted in foreign docs/press might be OK, I haven't gone into it. I looked up his israel NOW references he was relying on people whom YOU would not regard reliable in your country, such as Prof. Efraim Karsh. without getting too deep, these are government right wing ultra right wing security spooks in the academia who make a bad name to even disinformation. big red flag. He might be just ignorant, but I doubt it. 2. as for your point on the fine distinction bn ZIonism as power theory and zionism as current affairs.well, it is a controvertial matter within ISrael as well, but I see you point there. I do believe israel's mosad/other agency or operatives were involved in 9-11, but certainly I don't believe or even speculate that anything like that or another is done without knowedge, express cooperation with CIA and such. I am with you on the principles but maybe not on the practical implicatoins. Suffice it to me, that Israeli operatives had anything to do wth that, and "in my name". This makes me sick just to think about it. 3. Iraq - again, as in 9-11, same MO, stil sickening even if israel is not "leading " the US by the nose. My government has led Israel into a BIG mistake, making it LOOK as if it were our interest. rest assure there are MANY Israeli casualties in the iraq farce, one of them is democracy. 4. It boils down to maintaining the distinctions we reserve for any other country. DID Israeli government do all that ? yes. DOES is it REALLY benefit the people of israel, NO. same as Blair, Bush berlusconi. 5. LAstly, Israel as in Zionism now - it is not just beating palestinians, it is much much more and worse than that, which I think is more important to deal with, because people are suffering NOW. 6. Kazars - the only possible intelligent claim about the issue is that the damage was in terms of culture, not race. I don't believe in Jews as a race. What Arafat meant, I suppose, is that Zoinism is a colonialist movement from Europe. 7. My concern - you can do whatever you want and feel relevant, I have a sense of the American Jewish community trying yet again to sacrifice the Israelis for their PR in the USA, so truth aside, as long as they don't take responsibility for their part in further pushing sirael to war and chaos and suffering. It is monetary interests and our blood, as usual. I don't find it commendable. Therefore, the priorities turn now to public anti jewish sentiments, rather than on responsibility for their part in the iraq wars. It really does remind me of your enlightening thread on the Jewish Congress in the eve of WW2. PLaying games while others are going to perish. Lastly, I think you should take a closer look at how life is under a regime as ours, before you arrange priorities for Israelis or Palestinians. efraim Karsh in the ultra right wing hasbara committee <a href="http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=3/c/310720021">www.infoisrael.net/cgi-lo.../310720021</a> BTW, the lady who wrote about the rainbow swasztika is member of same. this is a good website to strike out any member from the "reliable sources" list. its the local David DUkes. --

by **Dreams End** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>before you arrange priorities for Israelis or Palestinians<hr></blockquote> When have I ever done that? Constantly I tell you that I'm trying to weed out good conspiracy research from "lizard people" themes. I don't know how that is setting Israel's agenda. Yes on Rainbow lady. I mentioned I was not as enchanted with her site, but the whole blavatsky/bailey/western occult/new age stuff is obviously of interest to me. Finding the online resource for full text Bailey and Blavatsky was worth the read though. And, again, my concern is not how this plays out in Israel but how it plays out in the US. OUR ruling elites have done plenty of damage before the "neo-con" takeover. Theories that suggest that the US was fine until this occurred miss a big chunk of the picture. That's not to say I don't find Bush even WORSE than most (or, more accurately, more overt) but the US was involved in far WORSE wars than Iraq before the neo-con cabal allegedly "hijacked" our government. Vietnam/Cambodia = 3 MILLION DEATHS. So, again, it's about looking at the picture more accurately here in the US. If the Jewish power theory were not making such inroads among "conspiracists" it would be no big deal. It is a sad fact for me that "leftists" do not look into conspiracy as an element of political history/ current events. Therefore, I am aware that much of the material available will often come from the right...and these can get mixed up, sometimes inadvertently, with unsupported theories based in ignorance. Just google "Illuminati and Jews" and you'll see what I mean. And on this board, if someone doesn't agree with any particular conspiracy theory, he often gets labeled as supporting the status quo or of being a "zionist" or even, bizarrely, a Mason. We need to be 'rigorous'. Put the strongest case forward...pick it apart among ourselves...learn the sources of various allegations and what evidence supports them.... Nothing a good prosecutor wouldn't do.

by ir » Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:46 am

And, again, my concern is not how this plays out in Israel but how it plays out in the US. I suppose this is the gist of the difference. -------- I totally agree with you on the "spin" that's going on now, but your response, I think should not just "rigorously" expose the fallacy of theories. rather stop the imperialist/orientalist approach to "other places/nations". I don't know if I am making myself clear, but the devil will always win the field of lies and spins, you can counter that by engagement with the "other" who becomes the scapegoat or the board on which the shaddows are projected. what you are sometimes doing is trying to tear out a page of lies with another un-informed set of "facts" on that "other". This can hold for a while. it reminds me of the Blacks in the USA, who are an Icon for theories (right to left) but no body is engaged with their actual realities, so now you don't have official segregation but "benign neglect" with nice theories which do not effect the end result. --- It is a sad fact for me that "leftists" do not look into conspiracy as an element of political history/ current events. I coudn't agree more with this statement. I'll tell you MY explanation - they are afraid, i think, and this is a bad sign for the future. --- As for the Hasbara lady - i also think her "line" is interesting, and that there are things to explore in brittish occultism of the 19th century. however, nazism is tied in with the sanctification of Science, and to the best of my memory the new age people, Blavazky et al, were aware of it and almost made fools of themselves in fighting the scientists of their time. I think they were anti Drawinian as well, not sure. The Nazis and their new followers of "the nine" groups and such, are all deep into Sciecne AND paganism combined, which I think is the Nazi "unique" combo. The fundamentalist lady from Israel was "on" to one part of the equation. But some of her people, who are both religiloius fanatics, racists, supremacists ARE also practicing the science fetish and playing with weird ideas, only THEIR direction is reversed, namely, they are the privileged ones in that story. --- Certainly, it is important to make people in the USA aware of the dangers and lies, but I live in Israel, and so I would not want to "sacrifice" my truth for the Empire, this way or the other, for the right wing greed or the left wing salvation. its not that my will counts as important to anyone, but at least in the internet i can excercise my rights :-)

by ir » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:50 am

on the other end of the danger zone, which starts with New Age (neo pagan) fascism lies the good old danger from the monotheistic fundamentalist religions. Yossi Klein Halevi, and American Israeli, journalist writer exppounds on his "vision" of some sort of unification among the tree religions which center is jerusalem. scar stuff. If he were just a private person that would be OK, but he is an editor and senior associate of SHalem Center, a Ron Lauder wierdo think tank/institute in Jerusalem, neo conservatives mingled with religious right wing orthodoxy of messianic sort and settlers. these people not only spread weird ideas, they also have a lot lot lot of $$$ to make you adopt them. -- Don't be too lenient on the mainstream here, and Zionism as in Israel now, is a bad enough without resorting to the other zoinism (the iffy conspiracy one). Its as bad as Hummeini Iran, in terms of regime. they want to run a religious freak show in the region. google Yossi Klein Halevi, Shalem Center, Ron Lauder, Azure (journal in Hebrew/English). They think Kristol is a prophet ! Lauder became a poodle of the republican party and in his mind Israel is a movie and also a source of money and cheap glory.he loves "israel" but hates israel if you know what I mean. Getting Israel into the iraq wars, getting more r&d contracts for military companies, making israel into a profittable labor camp for a high tech corp, while the little stupid but inventive and willing to die orthodoxized Jews will also keep Kosher and wear strange clothes - i think he gets off on this fantasm. He would never live in the hell he is creating here. but why not test some biblical ideas here ? who cares ? ---

by **antiaristo** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:50 pm

Forgive me for interjecting here, but I'd like to express two personal beliefs. First, Zionism is not about Israel. Zionism is about Jerusalem and European aspirations thereto. THAT (IMHO) is why you feel the alienation, IR, and why you have no constitution to shield you. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And on this board, if someone doesn't agree with any particular conspiracy theory, he often gets labeled as supporting the status quo or of being a "zionist" or even, bizarrely, a Mason.<hr></blockquote> Second, it was me that labelled you a Mason, DreamsEnd. But it had, and has, nothing to do with whether or not you agree with me. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>We need to be 'rigorous'. Put the strongest case forward...pick it apart among ourselves...learn the sources of various allegations and what evidence supports them.... Nothing a good prosecutor wouldn't do.<hr></blockquote> I agree wholeheartedly. Is THAT what was going on here? <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm35.showMessage?topicID=5.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...ID=5.topic</a> Because if it WAS, and in accordance with the criteria you cite above, I will withdraw and apologise WITHOUT RESERVATION. Over to you.

by **Floyd Smoots** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:37 pm

I tend to agree, for the most part, with sister, "ir". I firmly believe that there are far too many people, very highly placed in the American goverment, who are allowed to hold these positions of power "in spite of" their dual American/Israeli citizenship. Speaking as a Consititutional-Strict-Constructionist patriot here, this may, or may not be legal, but it certainly is not good for the freedom of American or Israeli citizens who love their own country, want it protected and defended, and who wish to remain free. I feel the same about those (how many, I can't guess), who hold political power in Israel, while also mainting their American citizenship. This is not a good thing, and I will adamantly disagree with ANYONE who says otherwise, and tries to defend it. Nationalism isn't always a good thing (depending on the nation), but it is almost the ONLY thing holding its finger in the dike against the coming New World Order. Also, D.E., why cannot a conspirational group and its offshoot subgroups over the centuries, not still exist even after centuries, yea, even millennia. Especially if those who are born and raised into those interlinked groups keep their mouths shut upon pain of death. I posit that the only reason we know anything at all about them is due in large part to the courageous ones, down through the ages who have awakened to the inherent evil of these groups, and have had the guts to come forward and tell the rest of us about them. Quite a lot of them are, consequently, now dead. I have read testimonies from some few (six or so), who claim that their "conversions" have, as a direct result of their new-found embrasure of mainstream Christianity, caused them to come forward with their personal histories. And, no, I haven't personally met or interviewed them, but their stories all seem to have a similar thread running through them, concerning what they were taught by their superiors (users and abusers) and what they learned from the church (little "c", because it doesn't denote a particular brand or sect). Concerning Henry Makow, just exactly to what part(s) of his position/worldview do any of you here object most strenuously? Not fighting here, just expressing my view, and asking for more details on your own.

by ir » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:21 pm

"I am sometimes doing that here, to see how easy it is (I am NOT a politician, or person who matters, so this is harmless). " i can't respond at this moment cause i have my own shoe in my mouth.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The "Jewish" Conspiracy is British Imperialism By Henry Makow Ph.D. May 30, 2004 british israel1.jpg Conspiracy theorists like myself believe modern history reflects a long-term conspiracy by an international financial elite to enslave humanity. Like blind men examining an elephant, we attribute this conspiracy to Jews, Illuminati, Vatican, Jesuits, Freemasons, Black Nobility, and Bildersbergs etc. The real villains are at the heart of our economic and cultural life. They are the dynastic families who own the Bank of England, the US Federal Reserve and associated cartels. They also control the World Bank and IMF and most of the world's Intelligence agencies. Their identity is secret but Rothschild is certainly one of them. The Bank of England was "nationalized" in 1946 but the power to create money remained in the same hands. England is in fact a financial oligarchy run by the "Crown" which refers to the "City of London" not the Queen. The City of London is run by the Bank of England, a private corporation. The square-mile-large City is a sovereign state located in the heart of greater London. As the "Vatican of the financial world," the City is not subject to British law. On the contrary, the bankers dictate to the British Parliament. In 1886, Andrew Carnegie wrote that, "six or seven men can plunge the nation into war without consulting Parliament at all." Vincent Vickers, a director of the Bank of England from 1910-1919 blamed the City for the wars of the world. ("Economic Tribulation" (1940) cited in Knuth, The Empire of the City, 1943, p 60) The British Empire was an extension of bankers' financial interests. Indeed, all the non-white colonies (India, Hong Kong, Gibraltar) were "Crown Colonies." They belonged to the City and were not subject to British law although Englishmen were expected to conquer and pay for them. The Bank of England assumed control of the U.S. during the T.R. Roosevelt administration (1901-1909) when its agent J.P. Morgan took over 25% of American business. (Anton Chaitkin, Treason in America, 1964) According to the "American Almanac," the bankers are part of a network called the "Club of the Isles" which is an informal association of predominantly European-based royal households including the Queen. The Club of the Isles commands an estimated $10 trillion in assets. It lords over such corporate giants as Royal Dutch Shell, Imperial Chemical Industries, Lloyds of London, Unilever, Lonrho, Rio Tinto Zinc, and Anglo American DeBeers. It dominates the world supply of petroleum, gold, diamonds, and many other vital raw materials; and deploys these assets at the disposal of its geopolitical agenda. Its goal: to reduce the human population from its current level of over 5 billion people to below 1 billion people within the next two to three generations; to literally ``cull the human herd'' in the interest of retaining their own global power and the feudal system upon which that power is based. Historian Jeffrey Steinberg could be referring to the US, Canada and Australia when he writes, "England, Scotland, Wales, and, especially, Northern Ireland, are today little more than slave plantations and social engineering laboratories, serving the needs of ...the City of London... These families constitute a financier oligarchy; they are the power behind the Windsor throne. They view themselves as the heirs to the Venetian oligarchy, which infiltrated and subverted England from the period 1509-1715, and established a new, more virulent, Anglo-Dutch-Swiss strain of the oligarchic system of imperial Babylon, Persia, Rome, and Byzantium.... The City of London dominates the world's speculative markets. A tightly interlocking group of corporations, involved in raw materials extraction, finance, insurance, transportation, and food production, controls the lion's share of the world market, and exerts virtual ``choke point'' control over world industry." Steinberg belongs to a group of historians associated with economist Lyndon Larouche. They have traced this scourge to the migration of the Venetian mercantile oligarchy to England more than 300 years ago. Although the Larouche historians do not say so, it appears that many members of this oligarchy were Jews. Cecil Roth writes: "The trade of Venice was overwhelmingly concentrated in the hands of the Jews, the wealthiest of the mercantile class." (The History of the Jews in Venice, 1930) The Jewish banking families made it a practice to marry their female offspring to spendthrift European aristocrats. In Jewish law, the mixed offspring of a Jewish mother is Jewish. (The male heirs always marry Jews.) For example, in 1878 Hannah Rothschild married Lord Rosebery. who later became Prime Minister. In 1922 Louis Mountbatten, the uncle of Prince Philip and cousin of the Queen married the granddaughter of Jewish banker Ernest Cassel, one of the wealthiest men in the world. Winston Churchill's mother, Jenny (Jacobson) Jerome, was Jewish. By the beginning of the 1900s, there were very few English aristocrat families left that hadn't intermarried with Jews. It was said that, when they visited the Continent, Europeans were surprised to see Jewish looking persons with English titles and accents. According to L.G. Pine, the Editor of Burke's Peerage , Jews "have made themselves so closely connected with the British peerage that the two classes are unlikely to suffer loss which is not mutual. So closely linked are the Jews and the lords that a blow against the Jews in this country would not be possible without injuring the aristocracy also." (Tales of the British Aristocracy1957, p.219.) If they aren't Jewish by intermarriage, many European aristocrats consider themselves descendents of Biblical Hebrews. The Hapsburgs are related by marriage to the Merovingians who claim to be descendents of the Tribe of Benjamin. In addition, many aristocrats belong to the "British Israel" Movement that believes the British soveriegn is the head of the Anglo Saxon "Lost Tribes" of Israel and that the Apocalyse will see the full reconstitution of the British Empire. According to Barbara Aho, Rosicrucians and Freemasons, who believe in British Israelism, have a plan to place one of their bloodline on the throne of the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. This positioning of a false messiah whom the world will worship as Christ has been carefully planned and executed over many centuries. According to Barry Chamish, "there would be no modern state of Israel without British Freemasonry. In the 1860s, the British-Israelite movement was initiated from within Freemasonry. Its goal was to establish a Jewish-Masonic state in the Turkish province of Palestine...Initially, British Jewish Masonic families like the Rothschilds and Montefiores provided the capital to build the infrastructure for the anticipated wave of immigration. However, luring the Jews to Israel was proving difficult. They, simply, liked European life too much to abandon it. So Europe was to be turned into a nightmare for the Jews." CONCLUSION I wasted much of my life getting a conventional education, so I feel I am beginning my education anew. It appears that a vampire-like clique directs the world. This secretive cabal is represented by our dominant political, economic and cultural institutions. Western society has been subverted and western culture is bankrupt. Democracy is a form of social control and the mass media/ education are systems for indoctrination. Essentially the problem boils down to whether we believe man was made in God's image and has an obligation to lift himself to a higher level of truth, beauty and justice. Naturally monopolists have no use for this and want to define reality to suit their own interests. They have taught us that God is dead and man is just a fancy animal without a divine soul. Culture today tends to deny standards, ideals and goals of any kind. Instead, we are fed an endless diet of trivia and degradation. Certain elite Jews are an integral part of this elite neo feudal conspiracy. Throughout history they have had a symbiotic relationship with the aristocracy. But ordinary Jews like the serfs were manipulated and persecuted by their elites. True Judaism like Islam and Christianity affirms the supremacy of God as a moral force. A real Jew, like a true Christian or Muslim cannot perform an immoral act. It's time to reaffirm our belief in God. www.savethemales.ca/000447.html Makow's views are elaborated further here, and notice, again, the relationship between Jews and the Monarchy: Quote:ORIGIN OF ANTI SEMITISM It should come as no surprise that the people who own and control the world have put their interests before the greater good of humanity. For at least 400 years, Christian civilization has been under covert attack by a diabolical multi generational program now called the "New World Order", "globalization" or "world government." Essentially globalization represents the consolidation of absolute economic, political and cultural power in the hands of a cabal of super rich dynastic families (bankers and their vast corporate networks) headquartered in the City of London. The UN, IMF and World Bank are some of their instruments. These families include the Rothschilds, Warburgs and other so-called Jews who have intermarried with Anglo American and European aristocracy. This mirrors the collaboration between the moneylenders and kings in the Middle Ages when the Jew shared the proceeds from his lucrative business with the king. The New World Order resurrects the feudal relationship between an aristocracy based on great wealth and a large serfdom. These families have embraced Freemasonry, an occult secret society that worships Lucifer. The top rank of this cabal is called the "Illuminati." The Illuminati uses anti Semitism to manipulate Jews and others. Jews figure prominently in Illuminati sponsored movements such as Communism, Zionism, Socialism, Liberalism, Feminism, and Neo Conservatism. Most of these Jews are ambitious or idealistic dupes who think they are building a secular utopia based on reason and not a world police state straight out of George Orwell's "1984". The Illuminati strategy is divide and rule, i.e. get their enemies to destroy each other. For example they set up Communism to attract opponents of private property. They set up Nazism for people who champion nation and race, and hate "Jewish" hegemony. Then they attacked each other. As long as Jews play a disproportionate role in the New World Order, some opposition will be expressed in terms of "anti Semitism." For example, this recently appeared in a book review on Amazon. "It isn't Jews dying in Iraq. Our boys are dying for their war on their enemies. Americans are just hostages. Our government and media is hostage to Israel First Americans. " www.savethemales.ca/000612.html<hr></blockquote> Notice in the first article his reliance on Larouche "scholars". Larouche started as an alleged leftist, then went on to become an over fascist. Here are a couple of Larouche quotes, but there's a whole thread on him in the data dump. This is him being a tad more forthright: Couple of Larouche quotes: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Judaism is the religion of a caste of subjects of Christianity, entirely molded by ingenious rabbis to fit into the ideological and secular life of Christianity. In short, a selfsustaining Judaism never existed and never could exist. As for Jewish culture otherwise, it is merely the residue left to the Jewish home after everything saleable has been marketed to the Goyim." "The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., (under pen name L. Marcus), The Campaigner, December 1973 "America must be cleansed for its righteous war by the immediate elimination of the Nazi Jewish Lobby and other British agents from the councils of government, industry, and labor." "A War-winning Strategy", Editorial, New Solidarity, March 1978<hr></blockquote> I don't know exactly when Makow picked up on the Larouche theory, but that, in a nutshell, is antiaristo's theory as well. And since Larouche used to be an openly fascist, racist, anti-Semite who, quite literally, organized goon squads wielding baseball bats to attack leftists, I dare to question his integrity. His theories simply grew more complex...with Jews marrying into the royal family and "taking over" that way. Oh yeah, and Makow hates fags. In any event, Makow has openly embraced Larouche (in the above article, Chaitkin, Steinberg and "American Almanac" are all Larouchian. The Larouche thread is here: <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm39.showMessage?topicID=9.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...ID=9.topic</a> It gets more damning as it goes, so read the whole thing. This idea of a secret cabal, sometimes Jewish, sometimes not, sometimes "real Jews", sometimes fake, sometimes Illuminati, sometimes Luciferian, sometimes human, sometimes reptilian, is just too MUCH oversimplification with too LITTLE corroborating evidence. That's not the same as saying the elites don't conspire...of course they do. As I've said before, conspiracy is simply politics by other means (really, anti-politics, if you think of it.) But one, uninterrupted group with THAT level of control and they STILL haven't accomplished their plan for world domination? So, pointing out Jews over here, or Masons over there, does not prove the long-term, longrunning, nearly omnipotent conspiracy. And it also lets a lot of people off the hook. Leftists tend, in general, to ignore conspiratorial aspects of history...focusing only on the system. I think this is a mistake. But I do think the system is a huge part of the problem and I am firmly convinced that many conspiracy theories are launched or manipulated to take the minds of potential activists off of changing the systems and onto chasing secret groups who are allegedly so powerful there's nothing you can do about them anyway. In other words, why bother actually DOING anything? One reason I have this perspective has been a lifelong fascination with UFO's, something not really discussed much on this board. The more I learned, the more I realized that most of the "juiciest" bits of "leaked" info about grays, secret alliances, etc came directly from the intelligence community. Add to that that much of the UFO culture has been steeped in fascist personalities (George Adamski, one of the first "contactees" was a Nazi Silver Shirt, for example) and you see the same engine at work that drives theories like the rather elaborate one above by Makow. Rightwing conspiracy theory (much of which was anti-communist...not always exclusively anti-Semitic, though usually a little scratching would reveal that it was Jews who started Communism and every other ism as well, but such as the John Birch society) mixed with connections within the intelligence community (and its Nazi imports via Operation Paperclip) keeps getting recycled and recycled. Most of my posts have been about manifestations of this. And it doesn't comfort me, therefore, that conspiracies don't exist. In fact, it has done the opposite: the campaigns to get this info out (as well as the fascist elements of "New Ageism") are sophisticated. But you don't need to go back to Babylon necessarily to explain it. A few Nazi occultists, mixed with some intell folks, some psychiatrists and some PR folks from Madison Avenue is really all that it takes, at the core. This doesn't disprove larger conspiracies, but I'm interested in looking at what is known...not attempting to cherry pick facts to fit in to the latest wrinkle of Illuminati lore. History is definitely controlled by wealthy and powerful elites, but it is also a chaotic system. I mean that in the formal sense of chaos theory. In chaotic systems, tiny variations in starting conditions can lead to dramatically different results. There are so many people in the world and so many institutions and governments and genuinely competing interests, that the most the elite can do is push an agenda but then ADAPT to changing conditions. Hence shifting alliances, shifting priorities, etc. And they remain elite because they are rather ruthless...so they cut each others' throats as well. Much of this anti-Semitic theory (here, this term is used to mean theory that has developed from ancient blood-libel and Jewish power theory used to dispossess Jews throughout history and not necessarily to suggest that those who buy these versions are, themselves, hateful of Jews) gives TOO much power to these folks. And it takes the power away from "we the people". They are working hard to do that already...let's not give them any help.

by **Floyd Smoots** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:09 am

D.E., One problem I have with your worldview is that it doesn't allow for changes in heart or philosophies in any known public (or even{?} private) figure. While I agree somewhat, with the notion that "some people" never change, I strongly disagree with the assertion that no one ever changes their opinions, priorities, or worldviews with age, education, and learning truths that they had never encountered before. Because if you want to get out the ol' tarbrush and start paintin', you can start with me. When I was an ignorant late teenager, I knew, without a shadow of a doubt that all the world's problems were caused by "niggahs 'n' joos". If we just rounded them all up and got rid of them, 'Murika'd be jes fine! However, some forty years later, I think completely differently from 'that' callow youth. I have actually read the very recent interview that was given by Dr. David Duke to one of Iran's major TV stations. I well remember his pronouncements of twenty and more years ago. This interview was a real eye-opener for me. It was well thought out, and well spoken; concerning what Dr. Duke believes to be truth today, not twenty years ago. I'd give you the link, but it's on one of your love-to-hate-sites, rense.com. So, if you want to read it, go find it for yourself. As for Makow hating fags, I believe that to be gross misrepresentation of Dr. Makow's beliefs. He decries the use of politicized homosexuality to purposefully destroy the institution of the family. But, if other R.I.ers are too lazy to go to his site, and actually read many of his well written posts, then we'll just let it go. Slimmouse comes to mind, and I know many of you don't like his assertions, but, at least, he honestly admitted that he is too lazy to go to other sites, and do his homework by actually reading their posts. I, on the other hand, never mind links from here to other sites, so I CAN go and read it for myself, but I really strongly DISLIKE long, pasted-in quotes by anyone, from other sites, as it assumes that most of the R.I.ers are too doggone lazy to click on the link and read the information for themselves. In some cases, I think I'm right. They would rather read whatever is censoriously quoted here, without having to take the trouble to read the whole article, whomever has posted it. It does seem to me, that you "protesteth too much", when anyone dares disagree with your assertion that the "evil ones" have just gotten lucky for the most part, and that their long range plans cannot possibly be a part of our current reality. I will give you my honest opinion, however, in My worldview, why most of you can't seem to get a handle on who is in charge behind the curtain. The largest portion of Members/users/readers of things here at R.I., just choose not to believe in the existence of a personna, known to many of us in the world, as Satan. Our view is that he is behind All the evil and woes of the world, not that we don't often consciously and knowingly co-operate with him, when we, under our God-given free will choose to do something that we Know is Wrong, right down to stealing a lousy pencil from an employer, or an "extra" few napkins from the local fast food chain. This view also allows for our belief (as fact) that he sets up many, many different competing world systems, i.e., Catholicism, Communism, Fascism, Capitalism, Faux Judaism, Faux Christianity, Faux Islam, Faux UFO's, and, yes, even Faux Freedom, here in the U.S., and other western countries, in order to sit back and watch the hellish bloody carnage, as we impotently fight against each other, instead of him and his evil minions/worshippers. Just so you understand from whence I cometh. Brother Floyd

by **antiaristo** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:08 am

Just for the record. The subject of Lyndon LaRouche came up in the first place when DreamsEnd asked me for my Views on the man. I answered him truthfully. I told him that when it comes to the British royal family LaRouche is correct. DreamsEnd encouraged me to get in touch with LaRouche. I told him that LaRouche carried too much Baggage, and that I did Not want to associate myself, and that my own case stood alone. That is the basis for your smearing, DreamsEnd, n'est ce pas? Whenever I challenge him he simply wallpapers the thread with LaRouche and Makow. Sad, but true.

comment on the notion of "fake Jews"

comment on the notion of "fake Jews"

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THANKS de

ps

Re: ps

responses, briefly

Re: responses, briefly

ah

A LINK

Re: comment on the notion of "fake Jews"

Weighing In or Weighing Anchor

anti and floyd

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Weighing More Than The Anchor

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