Massive historical fraud: this isn't 2006, it's 942 AD

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Massive historical fraud: this isn't 2006, it's 942 AD

Postby Vandalism » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:23 am

By Timothy Taylor

You might think it's the year 2000, but a group of prominent Russian mathematicians is arguing that history is all wrong, and it's actually 936AD. They've set off a battle that's now come to Canada, and it's getting nasty

The man in the tweed jacket sitting ahead of me is growing visibly agitated. We're at a mathematics conference at the University of Alberta just before the end of the school year, and things have been predictably calm so far. But twice in the past minute what's coming from the front of the room has made my tweedy neighbour twist angrily in his seat.

Our speaker is Gleb Nosovskii, a mathematics professor from Moscow State University, a man with a long black beard and dark eyes who is deeply serious about the matter at hand. This is only appropriate, because his presentation is nothing short of a mathematical case against history as we know it.

Nosovskii and his Russian colleagues, led by the famous Moscow State geometrician Anatoly Fomen-ko, believe that our "global chronology" is profoundly flawed. They argue that the conventional sequencing of historical events in the Mediterranean and in Europe from 3000 BC to 1600 AD - a chronology they say was formalized in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries by the scientists Josephus Scaliger and Dionysius Petavius, and has never been fundamentally challenged since - is shot through with inexplicable duplications. These duplications, Nosovskii maintains, are revealed through mathematical-pattern analysis.

In essence, it works like this: if you take the number of years ruled by each king in a succession of fifteen kings, you get a series of fifteen numbers that's called a "dynastic function." Now, if you compare one dynastic function from the biblical kingdom of Judea to a dynastic function derived from a series of fifth-century popes, you might be surprised to find these functions looking exactly the same. Your surprise would be justified, because there is an infinitesimally small statistical chance that two different series of fifteen rulers from completely different parts of the global chronology will randomly be born, crowned, and die in precisely the same pattern.

According to Nosovskii, however, there are several dozen examples of such duplication through the ages, right up until reliable historical documentation begins, some time around the sixteenth century. At that point the duplications abruptly stop.

This is so statistically improbable, Nosovskii argues, that one must conclude there are serious errors in Scaliger and Petavius's chronology. Specifically, Nosovskii says their version of history, drawn from accounts in different languages and from different oral traditions, is greatly elongated. To explain the incredible statistical anomalies, the Russian mathematicians are suggesting that early Renaissance historians made mistakes. Some errors might have been honest (such as treating two accounts of the same event as two distinct events) and others could have been intentional (whereby historians, at the behest of their benefactors, might have altered history in their favour). The effect of all this, Nosovskii, Fomenko, et al. believe, is that phantom epochs were added to the global chronology. If they're right, the sweep of human history is overstated by thousands of years and a great number of ancient events happened much more recently than previously thought.

Here at the U of A conference, Nosovskii has spent the past hour using astronomical data to bolster this case. He has redated half a dozen ancient eclipses centuries later than conventionally understood; he has shown us depictions of planets and constellations taken from Egyptian tombs and temples, and has resolved their dates into the medieval era; now, he is approaching the summit of his argument with a reworking of the astronomical data surrounding the first Noël. "And what new date for the birth of Christ will we obtain if we use modern astronomy as our tool?" asks Nosovskii as he prepares his final slide.

The overhead projector hums. The students, professors, and a few curious members of the public wait as the next transparency slides into place. The man who has invited Nosovskii here today, Professor Wieslaw Krawcewicz of the University of Alberta's Department of Mathematical Sciences, is in the front row, craning his neck around, gauging the reaction of the audience. Nosovskii's new date for the birth of Christ fills the screen. The man in tweed in front of me squints and reads. A math student eating an extraordinarily large sandwich stops chewing, his mouth full, and stares.

1064 AD

The man in tweed erupts. He comes an inch out of his chair, makes a noise, falls back. "But that would mean . . . . " he stammers, incredulous. "That would mean that the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea preceded the birth of Christ! That's absurd!"

Krawcewicz registers this reaction without surprise. He knows that campus opinion on Fomenko is already starkly divided, and that a number of professors, most of them historians, think the whole thing is nonsense. Archaeologist Steven Hijmans thinks Krawcewicz shouldn't even have asked Nosovskii here today. "Bluntly put," Hijmans will later say, "can research be so bad that the U of A should not be associated with it?"

In fact, Fomenko's research is built on, and supported by, leading Russian mathematicians, as well as the legendary Russian world chess champion Garry Kasparov. Krawcewicz is one of the few academics in North America familiar with the Russian theories and is also the man instrumental in bringing the battle across the Atlantic. Late last year, Krawcewicz co-authored a paper that no doubt raised the ire of the archaeological community by characterizing their dating methods as "highly subjective and based on presumptive evidence."

Krawcewicz takes particular issue with carbon-14 dating. Since carbon-14 is absorbed by living organisms and decays at a steady rate following death, carbon-14 levels are measured in objects recovered at archaeological sites to determine their age. Krawcewicz notes that the method must be calibrated using carbon-bearing samples of a known age. He argues that since this "known age" is established according to the conventional chronological tables, the dating power of carbon-14 relies on a circular argument. Hijmans disagrees, saying that carbon-14 dating can be calibrated using (among other things) long master sequences of tree rings, a process known as dendochronology. One sees the positions being staked.

In person, Krawcewicz betrays no acrimony towards historians or archaeologists. Neither does he show much concern about the interdepartmental ice storm that his conference and his paper risk unleashing. Instead, he's direct and good-humoured, a jeans-and-sneakers type of professor prone to laugh spontaneously at evidence of human absurdity. We talk in the dining room of his house, the table stacked with math texts.

"Many people don't like the involvement of mathematicians in this particular area," Krawcewicz says. "But the work of Fomenko and his collaborators leads to a very strong statement that there are serious problems with the traditional chronology."

"Complete and utter rubbish," answers Professor Christopher Mac-kay from the Department of History and Classics. It has taken a week of e-mail juggling to get an interview with anyone from the department. Professor Mackay breaks the silence after several others decline. When I arrive at his book-lined, Persian-carpeted office, Mackay turns out to be my man in the tweed coat from Nosovskii's lecture. A specialist in Roman history, Mackay is courteous but deeply impatient with the matter at hand.

"I don't go around coming up with dumb theories about math," he tells me. "I certainly don't have the effrontery to say that I can show them the way they've been doing math is all wrong and that two and two makes five."


"The people who did this research are serious people," says University of Alberta mathematician Jacques Carrière. While he does not agree with Fomenko's conclusions, he's prepared to give the underlying math its due. "Russian mathematicians, it is well known, are among the top mathematicians in the world. They wouldn't write something like this just for the fun of it."

Anatoly Fomenko, a prolific mathematician as well as an artist who publishes tomes of drawings illustrating advanced concepts in such areas as multi-dimensional geometry, has been a chronology critic since the late 1970s, when he caught the bug from a famous fellow Moscow State mathematician, M. M. Postnikov. And even Postnikov is far from the beginning of it all.

Indeed, Isaac Newton (1643-1727) published a book titled The Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms - Amended. In it, Newton disagreed with Scaliger and Petavius, concluding that the ancient kingdom of Egypt lasted not two or three thousand years but something closer to four hundred. With the book, Newton launched the dispute over global chronology that is now bubbling over in Edmonton but has been percolating in Russia for almost a century.

The movement in Russia began with Nicolai Morozov (1854-1946), the rebel son of a nobleman. At the time of his epiphany about global chronology, Morozov was in prison for his role in the assassination of Czar Alexander II. Morozov spent his hard time poring over chronology texts and, in this process, invented the dynastic function. In one case - cited in Krawcewicz's paper - Morozov drew up functions showing that the pattern of the Old Testament Judaic kings from Rehoboam to Zedekiah matched almost precisely the pattern of Roman Emperors from Alcinius to Justinian II, over 1,000 years later.

Fomenko took this analysis much further. Using geometric tools, he expressed the similarity or dissimilarity of two dynastic functions in terms of mathematical distance. The mathematical distance between two dynastic functions is expressed as a "proximity coefficient." A large proximity coefficient means the functions are very different, and a small coefficient, statistically speaking, means the functions are so close that they are probably the same.

To illustrate, imagine you have two brothers who separately research and compile your family tree. Both make minor mistakes. As a result, the two trees have different birth and death dates for some people, they leave some people out (different people), and they differ as to exactly how many times your Aunt Bessie was married. Even so, analyzed by Fomenko's methods, the two trees would still be similar and their mathematical proximity would reveal them to be describing the same thing. If you were comparing a series of fifteen medieval popes with the last fifteen mayors of Swift Current, Saskatchewan, on the other hand, the dynastic functions would be very different and the mathematical proximity would reveal them to be describing different events.

Fomenko used this model to compare historical dynasties across a staggering range of data. He began by compiling a complete list of fifteen-ruler successions from 4000 BC to 1800 AD, drawing from all the nations and empires of Western and Eastern Europe, and stretching back into antiquity through Roman, Greek, biblical, and Egyptian history. Comparing one to another in every possible way, including differing accounts of the same dynasties, Fomenko found mathematically what Morozov had sketched - that several dozen pairs of dynasties previously thought to be utterly different had proximity coefficients that were very small. In other words, they were as close as your two brothers' different versions of your family tree.

And Fomenko was just getting warmed up. Working with hundreds of primary-source documents (ancient chronicles, annals, and other records), he set out to confirm the similarity between dynastic functions through the comparison of the documents themselves. In its simplest form, this exercise involves converting the density and volume of words on a page into a mathematical expression. In other words, just as a series of kings may be expressed as a mathematical function for the purpose of comparison, so too may a series of words. He found that wherever two dynastic functions had close proximity, so did the written accounts of their history. This was so statistically improbable that Fomenko concluded that the existing dates were wrong.

In this two-part process, Fomen-ko claims to have found and confirmed repeating patterns between ancient and medieval Rome, and several instances where periods of the Old Testament appear statistically identical to stretches of medieval Roman-German history from the tenth to the fourteenth centuries.

But his most startling assertion emerges from efforts to map dozens of these "discovered" duplications. Plotted across the full breadth of the conventional global chronology, Fomenko's duplications combine to form a macro-duplication. Specifically, there is a stretch from about 1600 BC to 1600 AD that may be mathematically deconstructed to reveal a single large pattern that repeats four times. Fomenko believes this is evidence that early historians spun out a single historical pattern into a chronology that is much too long.

Mathematical dna evidence of chronological error? Or the product of pure chance and thus irrelevant?

garry kasparov doesn't think it's irrelevant. Before the world's dominant chess player came across Fomenko's research a few years ago, he had his own suspicions about the global chronology. Chess players, of course, are particularly gifted at noticing patterns. And Kasparov, being a history buff, sensed problems intuitively.

"I know a lot of history," Kasparov tells me. "I read a lot and I have a good memory. But I also like to analyze, to figure out various opportunities and compare scenarios. Little by little, I got the feeling that something is wrong with the dates in ancient history."

Kasparov focused on what he feels are illogical fluctuations in the tempo of human development, taking these as evidence of error in the official timeline. In each case, he interpreted these anomalies as errors of elongation, whereby the historians of Scaliger and Petavius's day placed events and accomplishments too far in the past.

The relatively blank period of the Dark Ages is a favourite example. "Conventional wisdom is that with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, science died and took one thousand years to recover," he says. But it is illogical to Kasparov that with the decline of Rome, and the movement of many Roman citizens to the newly flourishing Byzantine capital of Constantinople, they managed to leave all the scientific knowledge of Rome behind them.

Arguments that the Byzantine Church suppressed scientific knowledge don't convince him either. "I don't believe that such important things like the principles of mapping or ballistics could disappear because the Church didn't like them. A science that has military importance will continue in any generation, under any emperor, king, or president."

And what about the strange pace of mathematical development, he says, where the fundamental findings are attributed to the Greeks, who apparently lived centuries before the development of Arabic numerals?

"Then we have a strange gap," Kasparov says. After the Greeks, the Romans did complicated calculations in the areas of architecture, engineering, and ballistics. But they apparently used clunky Roman numerals. "Just try to divide big numbers or figure out the volume of a complicated geometrical figure with Roman numerals," Kasparov points out.

Fomenko's research provided a mathematical underpinning to the discrepancies Kasparov already felt he had discovered. Yet taken independently, how reliable is this math?

"I have no problems with the math," says Professor Carrière. "People might be intimidated by it, but they should just accept the mathematical conclusions for what they are and not really argue about that, but argue about the other issues, the interpretation, the reasons why."

"I am persuaded that there is a case to be answered, at least," says Professor Jack Macki, a specialist in differential equations. "It's sound mathematics and statistics, and it can be used to indicate. It can't be used to prove, but it can indicate."

What is more persuasive, Macki and Carrière agree, is the astronomical data that Fomenko uses to buttress his argument that history is too long and that many historical events happened more recently than we thought. His work with Egyptian horoscopes provides a colourful example. Adorning the temple walls and sarcophagi of some Egyptian ruins are depictions of the sun, moon, and planets as observed in the different zodiacal constellations. Assuming a given depiction is accurate - that the celestial bodies were observed and placed correctly in the constellations - a horoscope can be used for dating. Fomenko has interpreted over a dozen Egyptian horoscopes. All of them, he claims, work out for dates that are hundreds of years later than conventionally thought. Most well-documented ancient eclipses, Fomenko likewise believes, actually took place in the medieval period.

I ran two of Fomenko's new eclipse solutions by Roger Sinnott, who studied astronomy at Harvard and is an editor at the respected Sky & Telescope Magazine. The first is the famous trio of eclipses from Thucydides's account of the Pelopponesian War. The three eclipses date conventionally to 431, 424, and 413 BC. Fomenko finds what he feels are better solutions in 1133, 1140, and 1151 AD. The second example is the eclipse of 190 BC described in Livy's history of Rome. Fomenko redates this event to 967 AD.

More important to Fomenko is the fact that his dates accommodate details from ancient descriptions that the conventional dates do not. For example, Thucydides wrote that the first of his three eclipses was solar and that the stars were visible, from which an astronomer might deduce that the eclipse was total. The accepted solution of August 3, 431 BC involves an eclipse that was probably only partial in Greece. Similarly, the Livy eclipse is supposed to have happened five days before the ides of July, which by our conventional reckoning would date it July 10. Fomenko's 967 AD solution nails that date, while the conventional 190 BC eclipse actually occurred on March 14. (An alternative eclipse in 188 BC was on July 17, which is close.)

Sinnott confirmed that eclipses did take place on the dates Fomenko has chosen. These details aside, Sinnott does not buy the theory. Given that these events predate Julius Caesar, there was no standard calendar in place. This results in all kinds of dating confusion when we try to back-calculate using ancient chronicles. Sinnott concludes, "Even though Fomenko has found valid eclipse dates that seem to fit the descriptions, I think it is far-fetched in the extreme to conclude that the chronology of the ancient world is 'off' by more than one thousand years."


Far-Fetched would be putting it mildly for historian Christopher Mackay. For starters, he's not impressed by the credentials of Nicolai Morozov. "Morozov was a rich kid and a thug," he says. "And apparently he must have been some kind of real Bolshevik because he lasted under Stalin until 1946."

More fundamentally, Mackay thinks Morozov's data are suspect. He agrees with archaeologist Stephen Hijmans on this point, who has identified a raft of what he considers to be data irregularities from the Morozov chart that appears in Krawcewicz's paper, now posted on a university web site. Two Holy Roman German emperors are combined. Others are missing. Some dates of rule do not coincide with the accepted record. The mathematicians respond by saying this arises when comparing all available accounts of the dynasties in question, not just the conventional ones.

As for the credibility of Newton's work, Mackay just rolls his eyes. Scientists of Newton's era didn't have the languages. No Egyptian, no Babylonian, no Summerian. "Basically Newton was in no position to talk about this kind of thing," he says. "It would be like talking about Euclid's interpretation of the theory of relativity."

Professor Mackay is even more dismissive of the new date for the birth of Christ. In his lecture, Nosovskii used certain "facts" in his calculation. Christ was thirty-one years old when he died. The resurrection took place on March 25, a Sunday. Passover fell on March 24. And finally, the resurrection must occur on one of the designated Easter dates, as defined in an old church text called the Easter Book. All these dates were used by Nosovskii in his recalculation of Christ's birth date to 1064 AD (which, by the way, means we are really living not in a new millennium, but in the year 936 AD).

"Which is simply absurd," says Mackay. He points out that the dates and the Easter Book were medieval additions and so can't be taken as reliable. "None of that stuff was in the Bible. It's not justified out of the New Testament. It has no evidentiary value. It's irrelevant."

And Fomenko's other astronomical solutions are equally irrelevant, says Mackay. "I mean, which are you going to believe? That all the Egyptologists are complete idiots and don't know what they're talking about? And that this one horoscope is somehow so accurate that you can get an absolute chronological date that is manifestly insane?"

He warms to this topic, reddening as the wind whips trees in the courtyard outside. The real issue here, he says, is the fact that the conclusions of Fomenko and his supporters are much more problematic than the duplications they set out to explain.

Nothing highlights this more efficiently for Mackay than the chaos created by redating the eclipses of Thucydides and Livy. This is because Fomenko's new dates not only bring the Peloponnesian War (Thucydides) and the rise of Rome (Livy) up over 1,000 years in absolute terms, but they reorder them. This, Mackay stresses, simply cannot be.

"In the time of the Peloponnesian War," Mackay explains patiently, "mainland Greece and western Asia Minor were the heartland of the Greek world. Eighty years after the war's end, Alexander the Great conquers the Persian Empire, Greeks spread throughout the Near East, and three big monarchies are set up: the Seleucid, the Antigonid, and the Ptolemaic. The Antigonid dynasty is brought to an end when the Romans defeat them at the Battle of Pydna. That presupposes the existence of Alexander the Great. No Alexander the Great, no Antigonid dynasty."

And no Battle of Pydna. So in other words, putting the celestial events of Livy in front of those of Thucydides flips the historical effect in front of its cause.

"It's just completely insane," Mackay concludes. "We have a historical tradition that covers entirely, in great and vast and interlocking detail, the past two thousand years."

In effect Mackay is saying that duplications and historical anomalies are irrelevant given this veritable river of human record-keeping dropping sediment grain by grain, year by year, epoch by epoch, silting out slowly into the delta of global chronology. That delta accumulating beneath our feet is history. To misunderstand its origin, to capriciously seek its revision is nothing less than an attempt to move the earth on which we stand.

The wind has died down and the sun is dappling the courtyard again. Just before I leave, there's a knock at the door. It's the associate professor of history Andrew Gow, a full-bearded, thin-framed man with an immediate assessment of his own once he finds out that Fomenko is on the table.

"This is all perfectly analogous," says Gow, "to us telling the math department that it is a fraud for its use of zero, pointing out that there was no zero in antiquity, that zero did not exist, that you invented it yourself to make things easier. And thus, the entire understanding of mathematics, as you would have it, reposes on a fallacy."


It's difficult to imagine how this debate will play out on the University of Alberta campus in the fall when archaeologist Steven Hijmans publishes a rebuttal paper in the campus newspaper. On the one hand, many academics think the discussion is itself dangerous, not fit for academic consumption. "Nosovskii's visit raises questions, not about world chronology, but about minimum levels of academic quality," says Hijmans.

On the other hand, there are the mathematicians. Krawcewicz and Nosovskii both express a great interest in and willingness to begin cross-disciplinary discussions, to open up the matter to historians and archaeologists alike, to jointly consider the issues. And even those who don't endorse Fomenko's conclusions agree that valid mathematical questions have been raised. "It would be a massive irresponsibility not to deal with it and either prove that it's wrong or, if there's something here, find out what in the world is going on," says math professor Jack Macki. Jacques Carrière concludes, "To have a definitive answer to the thing, the problem has to be looked at by other research groups."

But an atmosphere of suspicion and challenge notwithstanding, there is some hope for dialogue. History professor Mackay says he would like to see the mathematicians answer some of the questions he has raised - issues surrounding Morozov's data or the chaos created by redating eclipses. "Oh, they absolutely must reply," says Mackay, "because it won't work."

Krawcewicz certainly seems hap-py to comply. "This is a monumental task," he says of the multidisciplinary project that he imagines would be required to correct what he sees as a chronological mess. "Nevertheless such reversals happened before in astronomy, mechanics, chemistry, physics, and even in mathematics. There were also reversals in economics and psychology as well. This is history's turn."

Just before I leave, Krawcewicz takes a textbook from one of the stacks. He asks me, with a mischievous smile, "Do you know this St. Augustine quote about mathematicians?"

I don't, so he reads it to me.

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of hell."

It provokes another delighted laugh from the professor.
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the redating controversy

Postby iridescent cuttlefish » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:19 pm

This is great stuff. I particularly loved Prof. Mackay's defense of established, conventional wisdom:
And Fomenko's other astronomical solutions are equally irrelevant, says Mackay. "I mean, which are you going to believe? That all the Egyptologists are complete idiots and don't know what they're talking about?"
Gosh, imagine that! what effrontery! Who would dare to challenge anything we're told? When I read Mackay's scadalized tone, I immediately pictured him as Cardinal Fang representing the Inquisition in the face of Galileo's outrageous claims about the solar system, when, obviously, the earth must be the center of all creation because, well, we told you so! All those church fathers couldn't have been wrong, and anyway, the pope is infallible (or at least has been since the edict of 1871, which makes all the previous popes retroactively infallible, using the famous logic that makes a witch into a wooden duck because she floats...)

Another thing you gotta love about Mackay is his apolitical non-partisanship:
"Morozov was a rich kid and a thug," he says. "And apparently he must have been some kind of real Bolshevik because he lasted under Stalin until 1946..."
A rich kid and a Bolshevik! Splendid, Professor, splendid! So, trust us rich kids, the priveliged elites of academe, but don't trust any goddamn Boslhevik because, well, they're communists and how American is that?!

My other reaction to this story, aside from pissing my pants laughing at Mackay's outrage, is what the new dating does to the effort to push the dating of the Sphinx back to 10, 450 BC--the evidence of weathering suggests quite strongly that the Egyptians didn't really build any of the great structures in Egypt, but this new Russian dating is going toake that chronological soup even more chaotic. Unless time really is some sort of elusively illusory spiral construct...
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Entertaining but unconvincing

Postby starroute » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:53 pm

I first ran into this theory when I was researching Bronze Age revisionism -- and found it so bizarre that I initially took it for a parody of Velikovsky.

In the case of the late Bronze Age, there really are chronological problems. There's a four-hundred year period around 1200-800 BC during which -- according to conventional chronologies -- almost nothing happens. Whole areas of Greece and Italy are virtually depopulated. Pottery styles barely change for centuries. There is no high culture worth mentioning. And yet at the end of those four hundred years, when culture starts up again, artistic styles in everything from architecture to ivory carving are virtually identical from those before the gap.

In that case, reducing the four-hundred year crashout to a century-long cold snap with reduced trade, and a certain amount of economic decline and political turmoil as a result, seems to be an effective solution. For Egypt, this involves regarding some of the late, poorly documented dynastics as overlapping instead of sequential. For Assyria, it means seeing certain rulers as duplicates of later rulers -- so Adad-Nirari I (1305-1275) collapses into Adad-Nirari III (911-891), Shalmaneser I (1274-45) into Shalmaneser III (858-24), and Tiglathpileser I (1115-1077) into Tiglathpileser III (744-27). In some cases, this process does flip the assumed sequence of events, but always in a plausible manner.

There are two other factors that make a redating of this sort fairly convincing. One is that there were no calendars as we know them until some time after 700 BC. From earlier periods, we know the names of kings, we know of events dated to such and such a year in their reign, and we have limited and often unreliable indications of the sequence of reigns in the form of later king-lists. But nobody started counting years and dating events by that year-count until the period when astrology and number-magic became crucial to religion.

The other factor is that there is a very good reason why the European prehistorians who concocted the accepted chronology in the 19th century would have wanted to insert a Dark Age between the ancient world and the rise of classical civilization. As Martin Bernal explains at great length in Dark Athena, the motivation was a racist one. They didn't want to ackowledge how deeply Greek culture and philosophy were indebted to earlier Middle Eastern cultures. There was also a tendency, particularly in the early 20th century, to want to project the Greeks as clear-eyed, free-thinking, naturally democratic children of barbarians, exempt from the corruption and depravity of the ancient despotisms of the Middle East. A major crashout of high culture, followed by a rebuilding from first principles, served both purposes.

All hogwash, of course -- but far too prevalent in Western thinking even today. That is, we couldn't be talking seriously about a "clash of civilizations" if there hadn't been the original attempt to present European culture as something original and superior, rather than the somewhat provincial, often overly literal-minded, but interestingly anarchic stepchild of Middle Eastern civilization. And don't even get me started on the mindset which allowed the looting of the Baghdad Museum . . .

But enough of my hobbyhorses. The point I'm aiming at is that none of these factors are present in the attempt to eliminate the European Dark Ages. Although there wasn't much high culture in Europe, there was plenty going on. Artistic styles changed dramatically. The Romance languages evolved to the point of mutual unintelligibility. Chronicles were kept according to a careful count of years, as were dynastic records of succession and intermarriages.

There was also no reason for people in the 16th century to have pretended that the glories of Greece and Rome which they so idolized lay 1500 years in the past if they could have reduced that to a mere 400 -- or for intellectuals in the Renaissance to have scrambled furiously to recover the lost wisdom of the ancients if it lay only a few generations back.

There are other problems with what you posted as well -- for example, the assumption that Greek mathematics was superior to Roman. The only advantage of the Greek number system was that it made it easier to write large numbers -- but it was almost useless for calculation. The Roman system of X's, C's, and M's may have been clunky, but you can actually add and subtract in it and even do simple multiplication. Mostly people who needed to do calculations used abacuses, anyway.

So this one, as I say, is amusing but really a non-starter.
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interesting

Postby anotherdrew » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:42 pm

I would think working also with Chinese and Indian indigenous records would really help resolve this matter. It would take a fresh look.

maybe they should drop the whole AD/BC dating terminology and adopt instead a system of numbering starting with a known date. Let's list all dates as "years before 12:00 Jan 1st 2000" so 1980 becomes 20ybca (yb = years before current age"). or maybe it would be best to just say that at mignight jan 1st 200 was year 0. so I say, we're all looking forward to year 7. 1980 becomes the year -20
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Postby yesferatu » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:07 pm

The Russians are really better thinkers than the the western rationalist academics. In all matters.
This is good stuff.
The idea of the thousand year Dark Ages always bothered me. It does not comport with natural human endeavor.
Something IS really amiss.
Kudos to the Russian mathematicians.
I really hope to see more of this. Not that I expect arrogant western rationalist thinkers to provide anything other than smugness, stupidity, and faux-skepticism, but I will keep looking for more stuff on Pravda and elsewhere.

Thanks for sharing this.
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Postby Vandalism » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:55 pm

Garry Kasparov - Exclusive interview

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chess writers typically describe world chess champion grandmaster Garry
Kasparov as either the best player in the world or the best player in world
history. He won the title in 1985 at the age of 22. He has defeated all
human challengers in tournament play since. Last year, Kasparov won a match
on MSN that pitted the champ against a collective of 3 million chess players
from 75 countries who logged in to vote on their next move. Kasparov is, in
short, a legendary chess brain.

Yet Kasparov is also a voracious student of history. He has read a library
of books and memorised most significant dates in the human chronology. to
him, there always seemed to be discrepancies in the human chronology. Then
in 1996, Kasparov came across the famous Moscow State University
mathematician Anatoly Fomenko who had published a textbook outlining his
mathematical theory that history contained statistically improbable pattern
duplications. The two men met and in 1998 Kasparov wrote a supportive
Preface to Fomenko’s radical book "Introduction to New Chronology."

Earlier this year, I interviewed colleagues of Fomenko’s for a story in
Saturday Night. During these conversations I found out about Kasparov’s
fascination. It took a few weeks to track him down -- Kasparov constantly
travels the world playing chess -- but when I did, he spoke freely about
several of the major problems in the chronology; including discrepancies in
mapping, military technology, mathematics, and how historians are reacting.
-Timothy Taylor
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Timothy Taylor: Let’s talk about maps. You're saying the Romans couldn’t
have had them, is that correct?

Garry Kasparov: There is no single original of the Roman time. So we assume
that the maps never existed. Because, if you look at the first maps of the
fourteenth and fifteenth century, you’ll see the quality of these maps is a
joke.

TT: In terms of accuracy?

GK: It’s not even accuracy. It’s like children’s drawings. It’s not even a
map. They didn’t have the concept of geographical maps at all at that time.

TT: And if maps of the 14th and 15th century looked like that, by extension,
you have difficulty with the prowess in roadwork and communications
attributed to the Romans.

GK: Absolutely. What I am trying to figure out in my preface is how they
could operate without the simple items - maps - that are necessary for
running such a huge empire.

TT: Staying on the Romans, there are other discrepancies. You write that
according to the conventional chronology, the Romans didn’t innovate in
terms of military tactics or learn from their enemies even over 400 years,
which you take as evidence that the Roman era is exaggerated in duration. We
have these two battles, for example, Carrhae and Adrianople, 400 years
apart, and yet in both cases, a Roman army using the same armaments is
defeated the same way, by cavalry.

GK: Absolutely. And they never made any improvements on the cavalry. And
amazingly, when you read the sources, they couldn’t make it because stirrups
were not known in Europe. For hundreds of years, the Romans couldn’t make a
cavalry which proved to be extremely effective.

TT: In your preface to Fomenko’s Introduction to New Chronology you write
about inconsistencies in various growth rates throughout human history,
including those for the development of human physical size and strength. We
first look at the great physical accomplishments attributed to Greeks and
Romans. Then we look at the relatively small size of medieval suits of
armour. Finally, we look at our size today and this seems to describe a
strange developmental pattern.

GK: Correct. We know that for the last 300 or 400 years, the size of human
bodies is growing. Now what happened is that we suddenly, in history, have
the backward process. We have these great Greek athletes, we have
ultra-powerful Roman soldiers. You look at the size of the Roman soldier who
has to carry all this ammunition. You’re talking about 300,000 Arnold
Schwartzeneggers. And even well-known historians like Edward Gibbon are
talking about how the soldiers of the 18th century were not able to do the
same type of exercise.

TT: Isn’t it possible that we have an over-romanticized view of the Romans
and so we grossed up their abilities a bit? No harm done, the duration of
the empire remains the same, but they simply weren’t as fast, they didn’t
jump as high, they didn’t carry as much iron.

GK: But then we have to devaluate all the sources. And that’s very
important. We’re talking about very reliable quote-unquote historical
sources. And they describe it in great detail . . . it’s not just fifteen
kilos of iron. He’s talking about all sorts of ammunition: a sword, a
shield, a long pike. It’s a precise description.

TT: So this is about credibility of source material.

GK: Oh, this is a big credibility issue! If these things, if all these
things never existed, then we have to devaluate as a credible source the
entire literature that is attributed to the ancient authors, because how
could they make such mistakes describing the ammunition of their
contemporary soldiers? This suggests that those sources do not belong to the
contemporary writers, and they were made up much later.

TT: I want to talk about numbers. If I understand correctly, the Greeks are
credited with the foundation discoveries of mathematics and physics. But
they would have had to do so without Arabic numerals, a feat no one can
duplicate.

GK: Correct. The Greeks according to official history used letters for
hundreds, for tens, and ones. It was extremely complicated. If you talk
about Archimedes, you should use Greek letters. But according to Fomenko and
his associates, modern science cannot deal with these problems without
[modern] tools of calculation.

TT: So, Fomenko is saying in effect that we've been unsuccessful in going
back and doing any of these ancient calculations using what are supposed to
have been the contemporary numbering systems of the day. Which raises the
follow-up question: How were these texts preserved over subsequent centuries
if nobody would have had any idea what the texts were talking about?

GK: Exactly. And we have again a strange gap. We have the big scientific
discoveries around the second, third century BC. Then we have an invention
of the so-called Arab system, the positional system of counting with zero
dated to the eighth or ninth century AD. Then we have another gap of 600 to
700 years before the positional system of counting was used for logarithms
and for decimals. But it doesn’t take 600 years. It takes two generations
maximum. Which takes me to the conclusion that probably the positional
system of counting was an invention of the fifteenth century. And then we
have a very very good, gradual development from the invention of this system
of counting, then we have decimals, we have logarithms, then we have great
scientific works of people like Archimedes and Apolloni on one side and you
have Kepler, Descartes, Fermat . . . because the complexity of the tasks
they were solving is identical. So if we don’t know anything about history,
we should assume that all these great scientists from the second and third
century BC have to be contemporaries of Kepler, Descartes, and Fermat.

Talking about scientific knowledge . . . the general conventional wisdom is
that with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, science died and took
another 1,000 years to revive. The simple point of refutation is that
according to the same official history, the Byzantine Empire was still
thriving. It was flourishing. So how come that one empire with the success
of the Roman Empire - and many people just moved to Constantinople from Rome
- how come this empire was not able to preserve this scientific knowledge.
Somebody will tell you that, oh, it’s because the Church was dominating. I
don’t believe that such important things like maps or the principles of
mapping and the mathematics, ballistics could disappear because the Church
didn’t like it. A science that has military importance should continue at
any generation, under any emperor, any king, any president.

TT: What kind of reactions have you had to these ideas?

GK: Mostly people are very arrogant. And they get very defensive, or very
insulting, because they don’t want to hear about it. It’s like you are
destroying their family branch.

TT: How have historians reacted to your ideas?

GK: Once I spoke about this subject among a group of English intellectuals.
One of them was a professor on Roman Law at one of the leading British
universities (without giving the name for him not to be embarrassed). And I
asked him one question. I asked him, I don’t want to go into mathematics, or
armour, or ammunition, or military inventory because those are not your
subjects. Let’s talk about something that is entirely your field. What was
the official language of the Byzantine Empire? According to official
history, Emperor Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople.
So, at that time, he moved his court and most of the bureaucrats to the new
capital. They couldn’t start speaking another language, it means they came
with the Latin language. So, at what time - according to historians the
official language of the Byzantine Empire was Greek - when did the official
transfer actually happen?

He said, maybe sometime in the sixth or the seventh century.

And I said, but the Justinian Codex, the rule of law in the Byzantine Empire
which was produced by Emperor Justinian, it was written in Latin.

And he looked at me . . . he knew that I knew already that the only original
copy was found in the beginning of the sixteenth century - amazing the
sixteenth century - in Italy, in Latin. So there is no original text in
Greek.

And he said, yes it was in Latin.

So I said, excuse me, can you explain to me and to other people, how come
that the entire - while the official language was Greek and everybody
presumably spoke Greek, I mean ordinary people - how come they used Latin
documents for jurisdiction, for the court, for official documents, because
you can’t use an unknown language in the courtroom where you solve the
problems of all the people.

Now he said . . . it’s a mystery we haven’t solved yet.

TT: So what is the true history?

GK: I’m not trying to give any definite answer. What I’m trying to prove is
that we have enough gaps, enough discrepancies, enough simple falsifications
to conclude that probably this history was an invention of a later time. I
don’t have enough information, and enough courage, to come up with a
definite version of events. And I think it is too dangerous for me to do so.
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Re: Massive historical fraud: this isn't 2006, it's 942 AD

Postby slimmouse » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:04 pm

You might think it's the year 2000, but a group of prominent Russian mathematicians is arguing that history is all wrong, and it's actually 936AD


So, what exactly defines the year Zero ?

Answer that question, and see thru the bullshit ;)
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There are simpler -- but equally unorthodox -- explanations

Postby starroute » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:04 pm

One explanation of the seeming Dark Ages which I'm particularly fond of is that Europe was only tenuously Christianized throughout that period. When the Papacy really got its claws in after 1000, it systematically destroyed or revised everything that might give away the truth that until very recently Europe had been at least half pagan and another quarter Arian heretics -- thus creating the illusion of a prolonged cultural desert.

Another explanation is that Europe hadn't ever been all that civilized. The core area of civilization never got much further than Greece -- with isolated colonies and outposts further west and north. The Romans made a heroic effort to acquire eastern culture and spread it to much of Europe, but it was always somewhat forced, and when Rome fell, Western Europe also reverted to its natural state of barbarism. That part of the Roman Empire which didn't collapse became the Byzantine Empire -- which is to say, something essentially eastern in location, culture, and religion.

There are many lies told about the Dark Ages besides the one about them being fully Christian. One is that they set in immediately following the fall of Rome in 476 AD. In fact, Western Europe remained reasonably cultured, in a rustic sort of way, until the Moslem conquest of North Africa disrupted the Mediterranean trading sphere. It was only the period around 800-1000 AD that was really as dark, impoverished, and bloody as we generally conceive as the whole stretch of time as being.

Another lie -- which I saw repeated somewhere online just a few days ago -- is that the Moslems conquered the former Roman territories in the Middle East and North Africa militarily and forcibly converted their inhabitants to Islam. In fact, a majority of the inhabitants of those areas, who were officially considered Monophysite heretics, had welcomed a brief conquest by the Persions in 626-29 and were just as happy to see the Arabs a few decades later.

The truth about the Dark Ages, if we can ever piece it together properly, will be extremely interesting -- far, far more interesting than simply defining them out of existence.
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More of this, please

Postby Corvidaerex » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:43 pm

I'm completely ignorant of this alternate timeline debate, and now completely fascinated. Kasparov's closing quote in the above-posted Q&A shows a very sane and rational mind afraid to make a stupid guess, but unable to avoid the disturbing (if minimal) evidence of something being off. I love that stuff -- it's the reason I poke around here.

Starroute: Much more from you, please! I'm a very amateur historian with a few habits -- the Mediterranean, Central Asia, European Middle Ages, anything China -- and the Late Bronze Age stuff has always bugged me. But would China's calendar help in that regard? I've read that China's calendar is solid going back to our 9th Century BC, which might be helpful with the Middle East civilizations, someday, if some trade/alliance documents turn up to prove or refute the 400-year economic/innovation gap.

Also, the Gregorian Calendar repeats every 400 years. Coincidence? Yeah, probably, but the 400-year thing is a pattern of sorts! Anyway, the Occidentals certainly had their reasons to minimize Semitic and Persian advanced cultures.

Yesferatu: I don't think the 1,000-year dark ages is accepted by even conventional historians these days. I've been out of university for some 15 years, and even then the texts had done away with the "dark ages" and replaced them with a far more interesting epoch that saw regular and uninterrupted technological, artistic, linguistic and cultural development far in advance of the relatively primitive Roman and Greek eras. I'm personally offended by the religious conservatism we're still stuck with in the USA today, but it was a weirdly dynamic period despite Jesus and His awful plagues and the end of the Roman Bath era (which still survives in places such as Budapest and Grenada).

But it's weird that there are holes in the Byzantine era that surely should be solved by now. An empire of bureaucrats and voluminous record keepers spread around the Mediterranean should leave a massive detailed history of every little thing, considering all the duplicates going around.

Then again, the idea of Christ being born not 2006 years ago but in 1064 AD is surely killed by the Domesday Book alone, along with many other European documents of the era. William the Conqueror ordered the Domesday at "Christmas 1085" -- the figure of Jesus would've been all of 21 years old at the time and nearly a decade away from his mythological and completely localized public ministry. Strange that rulers in faraway Britannia would already be marking his "birthday."
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Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:23 am

If anyone seriously considered this, it's time to seriously consider your ability to process information.
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Postby PeterofLoneTree » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:21 am

From the "Science" page of the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/science/14WAVE.html?

"Ancient Crash, Epic Wave"

"Scientists in the working group say the evidence for such (asteroid) impacts during the last 10,000 years, known as the Holocene epoch, is strong enough to overturn current estimates of how often the Earth suffers a violent impact on the order of a 10-megaton explosion. Instead of once in 500,000 to one million years, as astronomers now calculate, catastrophic impacts could happen every 1,000 years."
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Postby David » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:54 am

shit, i was really looking forward to 2012.
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Postby yesferatu » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:02 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:If anyone seriously considered this, it's time to seriously consider your ability to process information.


As opposed to the stellar record of western rationalism in getting anything right??? I will take the "information processing" of Russian thinkers and mathematicians into consideration on this until I reach a conclusion of my own. Which means taking more than a second to "think" about it. And I mean think about the theory...not think about "what will my fellow western rationalists say about me" if I take more than a flippant second to consider the theory. Western rationalists have one concern. Facts? Um no. They have one concern: not looking or sounding stupid to other western rationalists.
Now it is time for a flustered "History is what it is! God!!!!"
Oh. RRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrreally???????? Let's hear your theory.
Cause I am open to good arguments. Aren't you?
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A couple more considerations

Postby starroute » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:49 pm

One is the role of India. I don't know as much about this as I'd like -- but my general impression is that India was at the forefront of math and science around 100-500 AD, during the time of the Kushan and Gupta Empires. "Arabic" numerals were actually invented in India during or shortly prior to this period.

A second consideration is that there was a strong current of otherworldliness during the so-called Dark Ages that really did impede scientific investigation. The old gods had died everywhere by c. 500 BC, followed by an phase of widespread skepticism and materialism that left many people feeling hollow and unfulfilled. Despotic empires held the more civilized parts of the world firmly in their grip, leading to a longing for salvation -- for excape from the world entirely -- rather than for reform and renewal. Whether you saw the material world as fallen and sinful (as in Christianity) or as an illusion to resist (as in Buddhism), there was no particular incentive for working with it in a positive and creative fashion.

The third, and perhaps most significant, is that in the ancient world there was a class division between theoretical science/philosophy and practical technology that greatly impeded the advance of both. The Greek philosophers were largely aristocrats with the leisure to consider subtle problems concerning the nature of reality but no willingness at all to get their hands dirty. The Greek artisans had a great deal of practical knowledge of materials and processes but no theoretical framework to contain it. This aristocratic distaste for the affairs of the plebes both preceded and reinforced the subsequent wave of otherworldliness, and was reinforced by it in return.

The fact that this changed in Europe in the early modern era has been a major reason for the dominance of the West in the centuries that followed. My guess is that this was in large part midwifed by alchemy -- which combined theory and practice to an unprecedented degree and ultimately made it respectable for gentlemen to dabble in practical experimentation. But the change goes deeper than merely a matter of aristocratic hobbies.

The primary assumption of modern science -- that it is possible to describe the world mathematically, and that mathematical theories can be devised and tested against physical reality in a limitless process of expanding understanding -- is not at all obvious. It was clearly present by the time of Keplar (c. 1600), though he was still using geometrical models rather than mathematical formulas. It may go back as far as the invention of double-entry bookkeeping in the 1100's or 1200's, which is the earliest example I know of an attempt to use mathematics to model material reality. It probably has its ultimate roots in Islamic thought of that same period, but applied in more practical, real-world ways by enterprising Europeans.

Whatever the historical details may be, it was an epochal switch in human consciousness -- and those things don't happen instantaneously. Once a new way of thinking has fallen into place, further developments and correlaries tend to follow quickly. The rapid development of modern science over the past 400 years is an example of that. But the evolutionary leaps themselves seem to follow the law of punctuated equilibrium -- long periods with only small, incremental improvements, followed by brief, hectic episodes when everything changes at once.

It may even turn out that a thousand years of otherworldly detachment was the necessary pre-adaptation for a radical shift from ancient to modern ways of thinking about the world. For example, the essence of Indian/Arabic numerals is the use of zero -- itself a highly mystical concept that would only occur to someone with long experience meditating on the Void. Earlier number systems were very thing-oriented. If you had one sheep, you made a mark, I. If you had two sheep, you made two marks, II. And so forth. Detaching the idea of numbers from the idea of *things* -- then letting the implications of that slosh around in human awareness for several centuries -- and finally reattaching numbers to experience in a way that was no longer based in *things* may be the essential precondition for modern thought.

They say the Greeks were horrified by irrational numbers -- like pi, or the square root of two -- because they didn't fit into a sense of the cosmos that was grounded in small integers and the ratios among small integers. There is also evidence that irrational numbers were regarded as a key to higher mystical understanding -- the fact that something as simple and rational as a square can have a diagonal drawn from one corner to the other that is non-rational being a template for the relationship between ordinary and non-ordinary reality. However, in the modern world, we have not only encompassed irrational numbers -- and imaginary numbers, and more else -- but have reconciled ourselves to the idea that they describe our own reality far more accurately than the simple 2's and 3's of traditional Pythagorean wisdom.

It really has taken 2000 years to get from there to here -- and we shouldn't take that lightly or undervalue our own extraordinary position as the outcome of that process. The fact that the wildest mystical flights of 1000 or 2000 years back are now embedded in our ordinary, everyday reality makes our world stranger and more magical, not less so, and should not be taken for granted.
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my first post on the new board - looks great

Postby Seventhsonjr » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:53 pm

Seems that to me the discrepancy or redundancy of the history may be more easily explained by lazy historians (or politically motivated ones) to simply use old data, i.e. plagiarism, to rewrite or write history.

This might easily explain why the descriptions are the same. Seems a pretty weak link to say that redundancy in historical descriptions proves anything about actual dates.

I find that the arguments for mistakes or omissions is strong, but to say that the entire history of the world is off on dates by a thousand years, especially in recent history, seems ludicrous to me. Maybe a hundred or so, maybe, but a thousand or so, seems too easy to counter with global histories, including the papal records etc.

Of course with a conspiratorial mind one can conclude that any dates could be manipulated by the powers that be. For example, an old American history book I read (deposited in Congress) says that the Native people of the "New world" had tp have migrated across the land bridge by alaska since they were descended form Adam and eve in the middle east. It seems like this prevailing wisdom has colored everything since as for when the Native people got here and how.

Now, granted, the origins of humans in Africa seems to make it essential that there was a migration here as across the world, but still much of science and anthropolgy has been based on the assumption of the land bridge hypothesis (despite evidence to the contrary - that folks were here before the land bridge, for example) which in turn seems based on religious philosophy.

In any event, the problems raised regarding the "missing times", dark ages, etc. are worthy of at least revisiting the dating of history. No matter what - all dates are totally subjective, but timeframes (things like carbon dating notwithstanding) - how long things took, when they happened (like the article on tsunamis and meteor impacts) should be based on sound scientific analysis and not on presupporitios, either historical or religious - so an interesting area for study.

The new digs feel great, btw.
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