Who Poisoned Alexander Litvinenko? Radioactive thallium link

[Et in Arcadia ego]

This entire thread is Russian Data Dump material.

[Sweejak]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Justin's take, specifically:

The attempt to portray the Russians as mad poisoners intent on assassinating their political opponents no matter where they try to find refuge is a powerful propagandistic theme that, although unsupported by any facts, winds its way through the media narrative on the wings of pure supposition.

and:

Here is an issue that both wings of the War Party – by which I mean the leadership of the two major parties – can agree on. Liberal internationalists of the Clintonian mold and those few neocons still left standing can all get behind the regime-change agenda when it comes to Putin's Russia..

Remember KAL 007? I think that was the first time I heard "evil empire". People were shocked at that kind of language at the time. My father who had high level clearances said he thought everyone on board was gassed, put to sleep, and the plane flown remotely. I think the same thing happened with 9-11.

One Soviet journalist told me that our video was the biggest propaganda blow ever suffered by the Kremlin during the Cold War, something from which the Soviets never fully recovered

.

http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C1 ... index.html

I'm not sure at all about Litvinenko being a raving lunatic.

And rather than dismissing false flag ops his angle does the opposite and expands the possibility.

That said, I have no doubt that Putin can play as mean and tough as our overlords, and that the USSR was an "Evil Empire"
http://www.jamestown.org/getman_paintin ... nting_id=1

[Poztron]

Sweejak wrote:

I'm not sure at all about Litvinenko being a raving lunatic.

Me neither, and kind of my point. It seemed to me as if Justin was calling him one because Litvinenko was ostensibly over the top in saying the Chechen-attributed bombings were false flag ops.

And rather than dismissing false flag ops (Justin's) angle does the opposite and expands the possibility.

You may be right, in the sense that denouncing Putin's cupability means that one could attribute the responsibility to someone else. And Justin does leave that open. Not that he offers an alternative.

That said, I have no doubt that Putin can play as mean and tough as our overlords, and that the USSR was an "Evil Empire."

Fine. And it's best for one not to throw blame wildly around (which is what I guess Justin was defending against). Still, the drift I've gotten from this and other posts of his re Russia, is that he is far more willing to give Putin the benefit of the doubt than many others here are.

I don't know if this is good, bad, or indifferent. I just find it interesting.

[Sweejak]

Still, the drift I've gotten from this and other posts of his re Russia, is that he is far more willing to give Putin the benefit of the doubt than many others here are.

Well, I think that most are too quick to jump on the bandwagon, which we both agree is part of Justin's essay.

But yes, I see the opposite too. I see this with Chavez and really anyone who looks like they are acting in opposition to USa policies. I get pretty reactionary myself and I even shut up for a whole day when the democrats won.

Justin was all over the Orange Revolution very early on as he was with the Hariri assassination. He does tend to rant which I rather like.

About Putin, aside from known Berezovsky-like operations I think the idea of rogue nationalist elements ought to given some weight because unless one thinks Putin an idiot the timing, the necessity, and style of the hits are self defeating.
=============

Film Recommendation, this is a parody but the original is worth the rental:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZLIfa4C ... ed&search=

[slow_dazzle]

Apparently, X-Rays have revealed 2-3 objects in his bowel/colon. One at least is the size of a two pence piece (about 20mm diameter for non-Brits). I can't be sure but I think there was a reference to one of the objects having "ruptured".

If the object was ingested it seems a tad odd to my way of thinking. Presumably, something that large would have been chewed up before being swallowed.

Update - Just found this on the Beeb website>>>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6175424.stm

[AlicetheCurious]

Yeah. And Xymphora had this commentary about the BBC article:

Thursday, November 23, 2006

"No poisoning

As we work our way through blaming Putin (based on no evidence whatsoever), and then mafiya figures working for Putin (again, based on no evidence whatsoever), it is starting to appear that the ‘poisoning’ of Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko was self-administered.

In all these cases, you have to ask yourself why anyone would attempt an assassination that would turn an almost completely unknown nuisance into an international celebrity, with the accompanying worldwide notoriety for whatever the victim had been claiming. It the assassins had done nothing, or even shot him dead or faked an accident or suicide (the real professional route), the story would have never appeared or quickly disappeared. Why would they pick an exotic poison with a long drawn-out death or recovery that serves to turn the affair into a publicity circus?"

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/

[slow_dazzle]

Still not thought it through although Putin is playing pretty cute with energy geopolitcs (see link below). It would make sense in that context if there was an attempt to embarrass Putin. But, I wonder how it would factor into what is undoubtedly a struggle for global supremacy where oil and gas are the weapons of choice, assuming this is linked to that struggle, of course.

The other thing that interests me is the blowback if this is proven to be a scam. It seems a tad obvious to stick things in his guts that would show up on an X-Ray. Or maybe we are all on the wrong track.

Thanks for the info' - much appreciated.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?cont ... cleId=3408

[Sweejak]

Slow Dazzle, the Engdahl article really lays it out.

Maybe the Litvinenko affair is a Russian operation to discredit Berezovsky.

[AlicetheCurious]

Fascinating article, slow_dazzle. Thanks for providing the link.

[yesferatu]

He's dead now.

[Sweejak]

Nov 23 (Reuters) - Former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, poisoned in London three weeks ago, died on Thursday, the hospital treating him said.

Following are some key facts about Litvinenko:

* Litvinenko served in the KGB's counter-intelligence department and then the Federal Security Service's (FSB) highly secret organised crime group. The FSB is the main successor organisation to the Soviet KGB and deals with internal threats.

* In 1998, he turned on his former comrades and claimed at a Moscow press conference -- with men in masks who claimed to be Russian secret service men -- that senior FSB officers had planned to murder Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky.

* He was arrested several times by the FSB, his former employer, but was freed by a court and charges were dropped. In 2000 he fled to Britain with his wife and son and was granted asylum.

* In London, Litvinenko mixed with some of the Kremlin's adversaries including Berezovsky and Chechen separatist leader Akhmed Zakayev.

* Litvinenko co-authored a book in 2002 entitled "Blowing up Russia: Terror from Within", in which he alleged FSB agents co-ordinated apartment block bombings in Russia that killed more than 300 people in 1999.

* A Russian court in 2002 tried him in absentia for misuse of office, stealing explosive material and the illegal purchase and storing of firearms and ammunition. He was given a suspended sentence of three and a half years. * Russia's FSB approached Britain in 2002 with a request to question Litvinenko in connection with the 1999 apartment block bombings.

* British police gave his age as 43, while some media reports said he was 41.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

The other thing that interests me is the blowback if this is proven to be a scam. It seems a tad obvious to stick things in his guts that would show up on an X-Ray. Or maybe we are all on the wrong track.

Making an example of the whistleblower with an ugly painful death with publicity serves to chill the next whistleblower.

Like wiping out a village but leaving a survivor to tell the tale.

[Sweejak]

Data dump:

The Times (UK)
November 24, 2006
Victim's tea companion denies any involvement
Ex-KGB officer names third man
Litvinenko 'drank' nothing at meeting
By Tony Halpin, Moscow

A former KGB officer implicated in the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko broke his silence last night to deny any involvement, and pledged his willingness to co-operate with Scotland Yard’s investigation.

In an exclusive interview with The Times, Andrei Lugovoi confirmed that he met Mr Litvinenko on the day the Russian dissident was poisoned, but he insisted he was a business associate and had nothing to do with the attempt on Mr Litvinenko’s life.

He also said that he had an opinion on who was behind the poisoning, but refused to elaborate further.

Mr Lugovoi dismissed reports that a mysterious tall stranger named Vladimir had attended their meeting. He named the third man at the meeting in the London hotel as Dmitri Kovron, a businessman and childhood friend who was quite short.

He said that he had introduced Mr Kovron to Mr Litvinenko two weeks earlier and the three men had dined together in London’s Chinatown in the past.

Mr Lugovoi looked relaxed in the office of his security company tucked away on the second floor of a luxury central Moscow hotel as he gave his version of events. He said that he had travelled to London with his wife and three children on October 31 to attend the Champions League football match between Arsenal and CSKA Moscow.

He had been due to meet Mr Litvinenko on November 2 for a business appointment with a British company interested in entering the Russian market. But Mr Litvinenko had called him and asked to meet a day earlier to discuss the project.

Mr Lugovoi said that he and Mr Kovron met him at the hotel where they were staying. The meeting had taken place after Mr Litvinenko met his Italian contact, Mario Scaramella, and not before, as reports have suggested.

“The initiative for the meeting came from Alexander to discuss this business opportunity. He told me that he might be a bit late because he said he was meeting an Italian, but he called me after that meeting and said he would be with us in 10 minutes,” Mr Lugovoi said.

“Kovron was sitting opposite me at the table with Alexander between us. There was some tea and spirits on the table but he did not order anything and he did not drink anything.

“After a while my son, who is eight, came up to the table and I introduced him to Alexander and then we left together for the vestibule where my wife was waiting, and I introduced her to him. Then I went on to the match with my family.

“We were supposed to have a business meeting the next day but he called early in the morning and said that he was not feeling too well and suggested I go to the meeting without him.

“I called him again on November 7 and he said he was still not feeling too good and that I should call him in a week. When I called on November 13, his wife answered and passed the phone to him and his voice really sounded like a man who was unwell.”

Mr Lugovoi said that he returned to Moscow then took a business trip to the Caucasus. The first he knew of Mr Litvinenko’s poisoning was on Monday. He said that he returned to Moscow and contacted the British Embassy. He told the Embassy that he would be willing to travel to London to be interviewed by Scotland Yard.

Asked who he thought had sought to kill Mr Litvinenko, he said: “I have my own opinion about that but it is too early to talk about it and it would be a mistake to do so. This is a very delicate issue since the secret services of both Britain and Russia have become involved.” Was he afraid for his own safety? “I am not afraid but I take a very serious approach to my own security.”

Mr Lugovoi attacked Mr Litvinenko’s friend Alex Goldfarb for implicating him in the affair. He said that he had met Mr Goldfarb only a couple of times briefly. “I think he is just trying to attract attention to himself and maybe this is his way of doing it,” he said.

==================

Izvestia
November 23, 2006
WHY BEREZOVSKY IS FUSSING AROUND LITVINENKO'S BEDSIDE
Boris Berezovsky and the Litvinenko poisoning
Author: Vladimir Demchenko

[Berezovsky's position is looking increasingly shaky - along with
the positions of other individuals whose extradition Russia is
demanding in relation to the YUKOS affair. They need evidence to
back up their claims that they'll face retribution if they're sent
back to Russia.]

Reports about the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko, a former
Federal Security Service (FSB) officer now hiding out in London,
are circulating in the international media. Sources close to Boris
Berezovsky allege that the Russian special services are involved
in the incident. We have attempted to get to the bottom of this
odd story.

Here's a scene from Heathrow Airport. A number of Russians
are waiting for a flight to Moscow. The television in the
departure lounge shows a news item about the Litvinenko poisoning.
It's not a superficial mention; the story is seven minutes long,
including a stand-up report from outside the hospital, comments in
the studio, and a report from a Moscow correspondent. With the
Kremlin in the background, the Moscow correspondent makes a
gesture of disappointment: "Almost no one is talking about this
here." The anchorman looks astonished. Indeed, the British are
hearing almost as much about Litvinenko as they're hearing about
Tony Blair. Actually, news broadcasts all over the West are
opening with reports on Litvinenko's condition. It's a blast from
the past: millions of people are watching in fascination as each
twist of the story reveals intelligence agencies, Kremlin agents,
secret documents, and covert operations with the use of secret
poisons. The Litvinenko poisoning is a thriller to rival the new
James Bond movie - especially since the 007 films always have a
heavy dose of irony, while the reality show about the fugitive
defector spy is a tragedy all the way.

Well, Russia spent ten days without hearing the details of
the Litvinenko saga, without shuddering in horror. It regarded
other events as news. Not Litvinenko: a shady figure, a defector,
a servant of Boris Berezovsky. But we're in a bind: if we don't
report the Litvinenko story, the West will accuse us of concealing
the truth about this "victim of the regime" from Russian readers.
What's more, the latest twists have led some surprising thoughts
to arise among those who are observing the PR fuss at the bedside
of the "poisoned KGB officer."

Litvinenko helped expose an attempt on Putin's life

Litvinenko first drew attention to himself on November 19,
1998. With a group of fellow intelligence officers, wearing masks,
he held a well-publicized press conference to declare that FSB
leaders had ordered him to kill Berezovsky. And Berezovsky didn't
forget his "savior": he took Litvinenko to London with him in 2000
and employed him as an aide.

With Berezovsky keeping him fed, Litvinenko proceeded to
discover his literary gifts. He wrote two books: "Blowing up
Russia" and "The Lubyanka Criminal Group." He told the city of
London, and the world in general, how the Russian special services
planned to poison Berezovsky in a London court-room during his
extradition hearing. A certain agent from Moscow allegedly
attempted to prick Berezovsky with a poisoned pen. The city of
London got the message: the shocked judge, Timothy Workman,
included this story among the grounds for refusing to extradite
Berezovsky. Then, after Litvinenko saved Berezovsky's life for the
second time, the two of them went on to save Vladimir Putin. These
bold individuals made no secret of their courageous action: they
said that a certain former colleague of Litvinenko's had informed
him of plans to kill Putin. Then again, there was never any
evidence to confirm this story either.

Litvinenko was hospitalized with suspected poisoning on
November 1, but this wasn't disclosed until two weeks later. The
announcement was made by another of Berezovsky's allies -
Alexander Goldfarb, a citizen of the United States. Allegedly, a
certain Italian informer named Mario Scaramella requested to meet
with Litvinenko, promising to give him some documents related to
the murder of Anna Politkovskaya. After they had lunch together at
a restaurant, Litvinenko ended up in hospital - but promised to
make the documents public after his recovery.

Scaramella the informer mysteriously vanished - and from that
point, a strong connection was established between Litvinenko's
state of health and Politkovskaya's death. It was said that
Litvinenko had been poisoned with thallium, that his condition was
getting worse, and doctors believed he was dying.

Enter another defector: Oleg Gordievsky, half-forgotten but
still aggressive. He said that Litvinenko had felt unwell even
before his lunch with Scaramella, and that he'd certainly been
poisoned by the Russian special services. Newsflash: Scotland Yard
was on the case. This story was all over the TV news: "Russia, the
Kremlin, Politkovskaya, the KGB..." By then, no one even
remembered what the actual connection between Litvinenko and
Politkovskaya's death was supposed to be.

Meanwhile, Scaramella turned up again. This was revealed by
Italian senator Paolo Guzzanti. It turned out that Scaramella the
"suspect" had approached the British embassy in Italy and offered
to answer any and all questions. For some reason, however, no one
decided to question him.

What's more, it was revealed that Scaramella had indeed met
with Litvinenko, but the meeting was only indirectly related to
Politkovskaya's murder. The Independent reported that the Italian
had received two letters threatening his life: allegedly, some KGB
agent intended to use force against him and Guzzanti for
"falsifying the activities of the KGB." The letters even named the
agent, and claimed that he was "presumably involved" in
Politkovskaya's murder. Scaramella only met with Litvinenko to ask
his opinion on whether he should take the threats seriously.

Who benefits?

So what really happened to Litvinenko? No one has an answer
to that question as yet; but it's clear that the FSB isn't
particularly interested in Litvinenko the defector. Moreover, if
the FSB went after Litvinenko, the result would be a publicity
bonanza for Berezovsky, better than anything he could buy for
himself.

Even in the West, some are skeptical about the special
services conspiracy story. The Independent's observer Mary
Dejevsky recalls how Ivan Rybkin held a press conference at a
plush hotel in Piccadilly to tell the story of his abduction by
Putin's secret agents. Dejevsky comments: "The truth turned out to
be rather different. Rybkin, not for the first time, had been on a
bender. He and his supporters abroad had found an ingenious way of
'explaining' his absence to his wife and discrediting Putin at the
same time."

Oddly enough, the media wave raised by Berezovsky's people
could backlash against Berezovsky himself. In the light of the
Litvinenko story, the theory that Politkovskaya's killers should
be sought abroad no longer seems so improbable. And the list of
those who might have stood to benefit from Politkovskaya's murder
includes Berezovsky and others who have found protection from
Russian courts in other countries.

Justice ministers and police ministers from European Union
countries held a conference in Moscow recently. One of the topics
they discussed was reviewing European legislation on extraditing
criminals. Meanwhile, in London, Deputy Prosecutor General
Alexander Zvyagintsev signed a cooperation memorandum between the Russian Prosecutor General's Office and its British counterpart.

Berezovsky's position is looking increasingly shaky - along
with the positions of other individuals whose extradition Russia
is demanding in relation to the YUKOS affair. They need evidence
to back up their claims that they'll face retribution if they're
sent back to Russia. The death of a liberal journalist and the
poisoning of an "enemy of the FSB" ought to satisfy Judge Timothy
Workman. For a while, at least.
Translated by Elena Leonova
===================

BBC Monitoring
Moscow daily sees fugitive tycoon Berezovskiy behind poisoning case
Source: Moskovskiy Komsomolets, Moscow, in Russian 23 Nov 06

Excerpt from a feature comprising a report by Andrey Yashlavskiy, Diana Arustamova and Irina Rinayeva and two unattributed reports headlined "Mr Poisoner. Experts arguing about the cause of Litvinenk'so poisoning: Thallium or radiation?" published by the Russian newspaper Moskovskiy Komsomolets on 23 November

[Passage omitted

[Unattributed report] Why did Berezovskiy visit Litvinenko?

British policemen did not have the slightest doubts about admitting BAB [Boris Berezovskiy], as the poisoned man's best friend, to the ward. They should have [had doubts]. The oranges that Boris Berezovskiy brought could have contained anything.

On 1 November, when the poisoning took place, Litvinenko drank tea with Andrey Lugovoy. He was once head of the security service at Berezovskiy's Russian Public Television. Then he helped Berezovskiy protege Nikolay Glushkov to escape from custody. He served his term and successfully went into business. There is no doubt about the close link between Lugovoy and BAB.

When Litvinenko was poisoned, BAB trilled away like a nightingale, claiming that all of this was in the interests of the Kremlin... You will agree, however, that using thallium - or whatever it was - to poison someone little known to the general public, and so many years after he made his main revelations, is an extremely strange thing for "agents of Russia" to do.

On the other hand, this would fit in well with Boris Abramovich's [Berezovskiy's] own strategy. The Western press had good reason to recall how Ivan Rybkin mysteriously "vanished" and how it was probably only a miracle that saved him from disappearing for ever. It is also worth recalling the revelations made by Vladimir Solovyev [Russian NTV journalist], to whom Boris Abramovich talked about a "ritual sacrifice", arguing that at least one prominent oppositionist had to be eliminated in order to cast a shadow on Putin. So the truth, it seems, should be sought in the cup of tea that Litvinenko drank in the company of Lugovoy. For lack of anyone better, the role of sacrificial victim went to a low-level associate.

================

Making an example of the whistleblower with an ugly painful death with publicity serves to chill the next whistleblower.

Like wiping out a village but leaving a survivor to tell the tale

.

But for the timing.

Nov 23 2006 6:01PM
Putin arrives in Helsinki for talks with Finnish president, EU-Russia summit

HELSINKI. Nov 23 (Interfax) - Russian President Vladimir Putin has arrived in Helsinki.

Putin's airplane landed at Helsinki's Vantaa airport on time despite rainy and foggy weather. Finnish Transport Minister Susanna Huovinen met Putin at the airport.

He will hold talks with Finnish President Tarja Halonen and on Friday he will participate in the 18th EU-Russia summit.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Predictable finger-pointing from US-CIA-CFR types who are exploiting the image of Putin and the KGB. Perhaps CIA or MI6 are behind this. Lord knows they need attention drawn away from their own crimes.

From the AFP's Coleman article-

Uncertainty about the Litvinenko case means that coverage has necessarily taken place in a "fact-free environment," said a London-based public relations expert who has watched the story unfold.

But he added that British newspapers may be coming to re-assess how the story was reported -- largely based on briefings by an arch-foe of the Kremlin, the self-exiled Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky.

"There's a slight backlash going on in the media about the spinning, the way this was done," said the expert who requested anonymity.

"There's a slight feeling that the jumping to conclusions that went on immediately afterwards was possibly not based on much real evidence."

Maria Lipman, an analyst with the Carnegie Moscow Centre, said that the idea of the Kremlin ordering the poisoning was based on misunderstandings of contemporary Russia, a place where the rule of law is weak and scores are often settled violently.

"We should be talking about a situation in Russia where law enforcement is not efficient, corruption is rampant and the judiciary is open to bribery. All sorts of scores may be settled by contract killings," Lipman said.

Litvinenko is "a former KGB agent who turned against his country and fled and a person like this can hardly expect his life to be safe. God knows what kind of murky deals he was engaged in. He could have enemies anywhere," she said.

On Wednesday Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov again rejected claims of Kremlin involvement in Litvinenko's poisoning, telling AFP they amounted to "complete nonsense".

President Vladimir Putin in an article in the London-based Financial Times on Russia's relations with the European Union called for a change in attitudes.

"Stereotypes have little in common with reality, but their persistent influence on political thinking... runs the risk of creating fresh divisions in Europe," Putin said in the article, which did not allude directly to the Litvinenko case.

But Yevgeny Volk, the head of the Moscow office of the conservative US-based Heritage Foundation think tank, was not convinced.

"Russia is behaving as it did at the start of the Brezhnev era, when the Soviet Union was rich due to the oil price," Volk said.

"Moscow defies the West, supports Iran, puts pressure on the media and non-governmental organisations," he said.

Well, if Russia is "behaving as it did at the start of the Brezhnev era," perhaps so is the CIA.

[slow_dazzle]

He is too shrewd a player to carry out something so sloppy and so obvious.

There are other ways to send warnings. Besides, people with knowledge of the wrong doings of governments don't need to be warned off because they know full well what can happen. So I can't accept the warning theory.

This seems to be aimed at causing trouble for Putin rather than vice versa.

Typing this in a hurry so just treat it as a passing comment more than anything.