Another Beheading

[Wombaticus Rex]

Rather than call it keeping secrets, how about thinking in terms of privacy?

The main secret people have wanted from freemasonry over the years has been membership lists. So that they could then be persecuted by demagogues of the so-called christian variety.

...and now we're full circle. Bing!

[Simulist]

"Full circle" is a positive way to look at it. Lately, "full circle" has been looking more to me like a swirling plunge down the Tidy Bowl.

[justdrew]

well, what do you want? a final single answer to the question of "is it good or bad"

[professorpan]

Professor, you don't have to defend your secrecy to me. I was only saying, "keeping secrets looks suspicious." Let me know if there's anything you can argue with in that setence.

Although Masonry has a rich history of non-harmless secrets, as Pan observed, that's the upper echelon lodges at work, taking advantage of the cover being offered by countless thousands of earnest lodges like his own. P2 would have happened with or without Freemasonry.

Agreed that secrets create suspicion. But they also fuel interest—that's human nature—and that has always been attractive to seekers of various sorts. It can be good or bad—the ancient mystery cults were considered to be unparalleled paths to spiritual enlightenment, and were based on secrets that have never been revealed.

You may be right about certain upper echelon lodges doing stuff that the average Mason doesn't know about. I don't know. But the idea of "upper echelon" lodges is largely a myth, as is the idea that someone with a 33ª appended to his name is "higher" than a Mason with a lower number or no such degree. Masonic lodges in the US answer to their state grand lodges, but there is no national coordinating lodge—each state is sovereign and follows its own rules. Nor is there any form of international coordination. And any degrees taken after the first 3 "blue" lodge degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason), such as those of the York Rite or the Scottish Rite, do not confer any sort of power or standing. They're just additional titles indicating that the work of the degree was accomplished. I know you probably already know that, Wombaticus, but the misconception is very common.

[Wombaticus Rex]

You may be right about certain upper echelon lodges doing stuff that the average Mason doesn't know about. I don't know. But the idea of "upper echelon" lodges is largely a myth, as is the idea that someone with a 33ª appended to his name is "higher" than a Mason with a lower number or no such degree.

It is unfortunate how much loaded language creeps into this conversation, yes.

By "upper echelon" I was speaking, as I tend to do, in terms of class and privilege, not rank within the Masonic system.

well, what do you want? a final single answer to the question of "is it good or bad"

If you're talking to me, please, neither. Apologies if I got mixed up.

[Luther Blissett]

Isn't it possible that some secrets, conferred from wealthy, elite mason to wealthy, elite mason, occurs outside of the guise of established freemasonry? Instead the secret is passed between two oligarchs, but maybe within the conceit of a ceremony or esoterically symbolic ritual?

Plenty of researchers over the years have insinuated that secrets about humanity's past were passed down generationally through elites in this manner. I don't think it has anything to do with freemasonry, which I look at as an old civic fraternity. But I'm sure none of this is new to anyone here.

[professorpan]

Isn't it possible that some secrets, conferred from wealthy, elite mason to wealthy, elite mason, occurs outside of the guise of established freemasonry? Instead the secret is passed between two oligarchs, but maybe within the conceit of a ceremony or esoterically symbolic ritual?

Plenty of researchers over the years have insinuated that secrets about humanity's past were passed down generationally through elites in this manner. I don't think it has anything to do with freemasonry, which I look at as an old civic fraternity. But I'm sure none of this is new to anyone here.

It's certainly possible.