Can tension become creative?

[Joe Hillshoist]

OK That other thread got locked, which is cool cos what was interesting kind of had nothing to do with it.

Another point of discussion for Searcher: I wonder if the difference in what we're posting is related to the focus of our culture at large: during Bush's term a lot of people were thinking magically. The thrift shop I volunteer at sees what was popular "last season" and in 2009 and 2010 (2009 especially) we had a huge increase in donations of "magical" merchandise and books on fortean topics and spiritual enlightenment. The fact that people are giving these things up leads me to think that overall, the cultural focus has changed. Also, we're having the damndest time moving sci fi, probably because of the "hauntological" opinion that we're living what used to be sci fi.

I've noticed that even in myself.

Part of it is the line thats been drawn between atheism and rationalism and irrationalism, I reckon.

Its like there is a line drawn between straight rationalist stuff and woo, and woo includes fundie Christian stuff like anti abortion laws, anti gay marriage, teaching creationism as a science and so on and the Elephant in the Room - AGW. These days its more about exclusion than inclusion and that doesn't just apply to woo.

I guess part of it is to do with the election of Obama, part of it to do with the GFC too. I blame the Kochs and Murdoch for that.

So anyway this dynamic isn't unique to the outside world. It also appears to be on display here. No one talks about the reality bending qualities of adrenochrome in ritual anymore (or was that just me?)


Often when your heart and your head appear to be separated then some sort of "yoga" or something (Pilates maybe? ) is needed to bring them together.



Anyway I just wanted to acknowledge that point crickett made. And Searchers spot on bit about "Speculators" and "Analysts" including the throwing wine and angry outbursts. Which is rather spot on I think. We obviously all love and value this place, perhaps we need to not take it so seriously and spend more time reading the comedy thread and looking for reasons to be cheerful.

Did I mention Searcher was spot on before?

If not.

Spot on Searcher.

[IanEye]

Often when your heart and your head appear to be separated then some sort of "yoga" or something (Pilates maybe? ) is needed to bring them together.

.

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... 08#p183508



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[crikkett]

Did the shift towards focus on current events happen around the BP oil spill? Perhaps starting at the 2008 financial collapse, and arriving at the oil spill.

Frankly, current events are bizarre, dramatic and terrifying, and coming on so fast that they're hard to keep up with.

But I also think we perceive a shift in power that makes it practical for us to talk about current events more than mysteries. Because we have a better chance these days to do something.

Or whatever.

[Joe Hillshoist]

fuck your fascist beauty standards...

Too right.



Really tho, yoga means ... well it may as well mean work, specifically a directed disciplined form of work. Kind of like Chi Kung, which is sposed to mean "work for your Chi" or something similar.

Crowley used to go on about Yoga meaning Union, and in that sense he is right cos its a work or effort to bring about some internal union, or to maintain it if its already there. Spoecifically between your heart and your head.



BTW Pilates is actually great training if you want a proper strong "core". I know those terms are surrounded by bullshit now and attatched to brands and stuff so they are almost meaningless, but the reality is that stuff is often/always heaps better than weight training.

Unless you are gonna do 1000 sit ups and 1000 push ups a day (at least) and spend at least and hour a day actually hitting a speed ball (the sort in a boxing gym), and another one hitting a bag then there is no other effective way to tire out your core enough that all the fibres in all the muscles get used. I spose you could swim a km or two every day, especially in the ocean. That'd have a similar effect.

[Joe Hillshoist]

But I also think we perceive a shift in power that makes it practical for us to talk about current events more than mysteries. Because we have a better chance these days to do something.

Yeah I think thats part of it.

But its also the line between alleged rationality and batshit insane stupidity imo.

Like really, creationism takes the cake in that regard. Sure there is a lot about evolution that isn't explained. Thats the point, we have the rest of human history to figure that stuff out. But the whole thing wrt to science is seen as a competition between science and some clown from the 1800s interpretation of some book thats been re written for thousands of years.I mean sure some aspects of science are really problematic. Its use in the service of business for example, and the idea of research being owned not belonging to humanity as a whole come to mind.

There's plenty of other stuff too.

But basically science is a good thing. It works when its done well. Its able to measure stuff and make conclusions that can be repeated around the world and across cultures.

Check this article for example:

At the heart of many scientists - but not all scientists - lies the heart of a totalitarian planner. One can see them now, beavering away, alone, unknown, in their laboratories. And now, through the great global warming swindle they can influence policy, they can set agendas, they can reach into everyone's lives; they can, like Lenin, proclaim "what must be done". While the humanities had a sort of warm-hearted, muddle-headed leftism, the sciences carry with them no such feeling for humanity.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2742686.html

[wallflower]

Joe Hillshoist wrote:

Often when your heart and your head appear to be separated then some sort of "yoga" or something (Pilates maybe? ) is needed to bring them together.

The mention of "yoga" reminded me of Paul Ryan--no not that Paul Ryan--who has developed a practice he calls Threeing.

Much of Ryan's techniques are not easily adapted to Online forums, but it seems to me that some the problems he identifies in small groups in the section The Tricolor Talking Stick occure Online and Offline.

Ryan works with Charles Sanders Peirce's categories: Firstness, Secondness and Thirdness.

I'm sure that there are people here very much more informed about Peirce's philosophy, and who might very well take issue with how Ryan treats the categories. But some general understanding of the categories is perhaps useful. Anyhow it seems to me that much of the tension here has to do with secondness: dyadic relation (the relate and the correlate), reaction, resistance , brute facts and etc. The board has very able moderators who adopt thirdness as a perspective, but when regular posters take that perspective it's kind of frowned upon by those engaged in reaction and resistance. They are thought of as "peacemakers" and wishy washy without recognizing or admitting--except in the case of mods--as contributing to the discussion.

In that section of Ryan's talking stick there's a protocol for disputes in triads to be resolved with the engagement of a fourth party. LOL I don't think there's a fourthness category, but in any case would like to see the mods act analogously to the fourth party in Ryan's scheme here.

[82_28]

Yes. Tension can be creative. But possibly and I hope this isn't the case, but not here. I constantly feel the pangs of sharing creativity here and have for going on seven or so years, first by reading and then by beginning to share what's on my mind here -- just like every other member. But I personally cannot do so, in any facet of life with antagonists. It's never worked that way for anyone. Not, pure, utter hatred. You begin to fear. Fear is death. Speculation on fear is life when done so in a supportive family or community this is why we support outside of ego. If these "witch hunts" do not end, I will speculate elsewhere, and will also miss RI. I like friends and don't like making enemies, as I have none that I know of in all of my 36 years. There is positively no reason for anyone hating anyone anywhere and especially here with "fellow travelers" and "Riggies". I am fucking sick of it, but shall remain until the antagonizers do one more thing. They need to be kept under control and/or a new rule, which would amount to idiocy in the long run about "profanity" but profanity can no longer be used. Seriously, just be cool and embrace community. You will never, ever get anything from me if you are an authoritarian. Ever. Live and let live.

[Pierre d'Achoppement]

Joe, if you run for 2 minutes at top speed and then do 30 pushups slowly followed by doing the plank for two minutes every other day only your core is gonna be very tired already.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Joe, if you run for 2 minutes at top speed and then do 30 pushups slowly followed by doing the plank for two minutes every other day only your core is gonna be very tired already.

Yeah maybe, but it still hasn't used all the muscles and all the fibres in em to a point where they all deplete and restock. In fact that sounds like a good point to start training... after you've run 800m and done some push ups then had a bit of a lie down...

[Stephen Morgan]

Why would you want your heart and head together? Or to totally exhaust all of the fibres in your muscles?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Why would you want your heart and head together? Or to totally exhaust all of the fibres in your muscles?

Well if your heart and your head are "together" then you are more likely to use your intuition and your rational faculties to complement each other.

AS for muscle fibres ... well each one has to work - to deplete its stores of ATP and replenish them for a proper training effect to occur.

[Stephen Morgan]

Why would you want your heart and head together? Or to totally exhaust all of the fibres in your muscles?

Well if your heart and your head are "together" then you are more likely to use your intuition and your rational faculties to complement each other.

I'm not sure that's a good idea.

AS for muscle fibres ... well each one has to work - to deplete its stores of ATP and replenish them for a proper training effect to occur.

If you say so.

[stefano]

Part of it is the line thats been drawn between [...] rationalism and irrationalism, I reckon.

Well, that's a good and useful line. I like that line. The scientific method of enquiry developed over a very long time to distinguish truth from bullshit, and it remains the only way of doing that. Of course someone could say that it doesn't really matter, that all worldviews are equal in their validity, but then I don't see why that person would be talking to people whose hobby is finding out what's really going on. This is a discussion board and where there's an argument the rules of logic should always test the validity of any piece of evidence someone brings to the board. If a poster refuses to acknowledge that this or that piece of evidence contradicts his worldview, when faced with the facts, then he's not really participating in the discussion.

This doesn't imply an automatic dismissal of woo at all, and as a fiercely rational gnostic I sort of resent your grouping of "atheism and rationalism" (as I do when atheists claim a monopoly on rationality). In fact, my issue with the hardcore "rationalists" of the PZ Myers/James Randi stamp is precisely that they aren't rational. There is a mass of evidence that contradicts their worldview, but instead of exploring it the way Rupert Sheldrake and Lyall Watson do (which to me is proper science), they obstinately insist that it's just not there. Those same thinkers, not coincidentally, are blind to all the evidence that their government is criminal.

My favourite story along those lines is the one about the French Royal Academy in the 18th century: having adopted the Copernican model of the galaxy they thought that it was impossible for rocks to fall from the sky and convinced museum curators all over Europe that their meteorites were not, in fact, meteorites at all, and the curators promptly tossed them all out.

And Searchers spot on bit about "Speculators" and "Analysts" including the throwing wine and angry outbursts. Which is rather spot on I think.

Yeah, that was good and everyone here should keep that in mind:

One set of people speculate and think as they write, so engage in relatively little editing before pressing the Submit button - "the Speculators"
Another set of people analyse - and think, then they write - and engage in a LOT of editing before pressing Submit - "the Analysts"

Speculators perceive Analysts as (at worst) intuition intolerant, cognitive fascists with a flavour of overbearing arrogance verging on bullying

Analysts perceive Speculators as (at worst) deliberately unfocused, time wasting, mental masturbators getting in the way of real rigourous conversation / debate.

[82_28]

^^^But there need not be any bicameralism or bifurcation between the two if people understand that at the end of the day this place is a community of people distant from one another who are doing what we are doing. What is it that we are doing? Easy. We are all here -- and that is what we are doing.

Are we making a difference? Yes. We are making a difference in each other's lives and that's what's most important. Pointed and personalized insults do not add to creativity, nor speculation or analysis whatsoever in any realm of life, online or off. Use all the language you want and build off of each other, use it for what you do in real life -- I sure do.

Personally, I wanted to make a post about how we are "pluriforms of God" last night because I got to thinking about it ala PKD/gnosticism, but decided against it, because I realized I wanted to fold the point of the post into the personalized animosity here into the meaning of what I was saying.

I do not like jumping at shadows.

So I merely made the post I was going to make to friends over email instead. I may post what I had in mind here later, I don't know. Some people want to make RI completely devoid of any kind of fascination of our cosmos/reality/surreality and are doing so in personalized fashion. Don't fly for 82_28 and is honestly the only reason I've chilled here for as long as I have and hope to for some time.

[stefano]

What is it that we are doing? Easy. We are all here -- and that is what we are doing.

That's not all we are doing, though. We're also having discussions about all sorts of subjects, and often disagreeing pretty vehemently about how to understand them. Then I'm afraid there is a very clear bifurcation between logic and feeling.

Yeah of course "being here" and feeling are important, and I'm glad members here feel comfortable posting about sad or stressful things that happen in their lives, it makes me feel like part of a good thing. But there are threads for that and threads for other things, and I personally really don't enjoy participating in discussions where I happen to know a lot, and bringing news and background to the board, and then being confronted with a quasi-religious belief system that's immune to logical persuasion.

Some people want to make RI completely devoid of any kind of fascination of our cosmos/reality/surreality and are doing so in personalized fashion.

No, I don't think so actually, or maybe a tiny number of people. I'm one of the "Analysts" Searcher talked about and I'm 100% for woo threads, in fact I'm disappointed that they've got less numerous since I joined. Bring it on, talk about it.