Huge explosion in Oslo

[Stephen Morgan]

.

Okay, let's speculate: Gladio. Why is this new incarnation fingering Nazis?

.

Because they are Nazis. Even the original Gladio only used false-flags some of the time, often preferring the more straightforward approach of slaughtering leftists.

[Stephen Morgan]

There is also no sense in committing your already limited resources in penny packets to be defeated in detail by an enemy of unknown strength and means. If an initial, disorganized police assault on the island had been defeated by gunmen, it might have taken several more hours to bring up an organized force from even farther away and launch a second intervention. Then how many would have been killed?

Except they knew that only one gunman had gone across to the island on the ferry, that they therefore heavily outnumbered him, and that a commando force was on the way just in case.

[stickdog99]

It's like when FEMA did not allow the Red Cross into New Orleans to hand out water and deliver first aid. The island was 600 fucking meters away and kids were dying every second at the hands of a single maniac. Kids were drowning and bleeding to death in the water while other kids were getting shot up on land.

This seems closer to the truth of the matter. FEMA doesn't really exist to protect the citizens from disasters. Like the National Guard, the Navy SEALs or the Norweigean Beredskapstroppen with their expensive equipment and war toys, it exists to assist The State. Those troops and war toys were created and trained to deal with hostage situations, sniper attacks, and assorted other assymetrical acts of warfare in order to protect stuff like oil platforms and the kind of national infrastructure/services on which doing corporate business depends from guerilla sabotage. They don't really work for or belong to the people. That's just mission-statement rhetoric, designed to throw a thin veil of apparent parliamentary propriety over the military-industrial complex's effective ownership and control of large parts of the apparatus of state.

The lives of children are not worth all that much either to the people who built the system or to the people who run it. And the boots-on-the-ground-level responders aren't really empowered to make their own individual determinations about what's a priority and what isn't. On the contrary, in the case of the special forces in particular, they're not just highly trained but what you might call "heavily indoctrinated" to follow procedure without thinking for themselves at all.

Does anyone really imagine that, for example, the Navy SEALs are trained to respond to the slaughter of innocent civilians with passionate urgency? They wouldn't be able to do their jobs at all if that meant anything whatsoever to them. And that's outrageous. Which is all the more reason it's important to recognize it for what it is.

And it is, in fact, a conspiracy, of course. Just not the kind that requires some kind of stand-down order from on high. It's built into the program.

Great post. Can't say I disagree. The only thing is, what about the local cops who (according to the official timeline, believe it or not) supposedly got there 17 minutes before the big guns?

I'm just asking a question here. OK?

[barracuda]

It's hard to say. The general idea seems to be that they were either advised to wait for the Beredskapstroppen or made that decision on their own. They said they were "getting prepared", which I take to mean they didn't know what to do, having never in their entire careers as police officers been enmeshed in a situation of this official magnitude, but it could just have easily meant they were told to actually get things ready for the Oslo troops, i.e., locating a suitable boat that would summarily sink, holstering their weapons for the first time all year, etc. How many local officers were there, anyway? Do we know? Because if it were only two or three it might make a difference as to the dynamics of their motivations. Where one man can be a hero, five can become a unit, doing what they were told. And as others here have mentioned, police aren't trained to act heroically, they're trained to use caution.

[Stephen Morgan]

There is a dismally male dynamic at work in the world, and even in the microcosm of this thread, and I don't want to add to it with any more sarcasm or swearing or insistence on being right at the cost of any escalation. (I really wish more women would contribute to this discussion, and I also want to see what Stan Goff and Klaus Theweleit have to say about this latest Male Fantasist and this particular massacre of the innocents.)
.

Good point. What is it about males that makes so many of us so damn problematic by nature? IMHO, men (in general) are so fucked up, present company included. I mean, I'm so fucked up that I can even imagine that some super powered lone wolf madman who dresses up in idiotic uniform after uniform and hires some GQ photog to take his picture while thinking its a great idea to murder 50+ helpless children by his own hand to make a stupid fucking point is real.

Good to see the anti-sexist board going strong.

[stickdog99]

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showth ... procedures

Well i dont have a problem if the public sees my policy on it. Ours in a nut shell states do what you have to do to eliminate the threat. weather one officer goes or 4 do what you need to do to save lives.

[Joe Hillshoist]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/07/24/2011-07-24_cop_delay_gave_him_90_minutes_to_kill_maniac_lured_some_to_their_death_others_ra.html?r=news

Inept Norweigan cops couldn't locate a helicopter or a boat, allowing the gunman to shoot down his victims for 90 minutes before help arrived. By that time, the mass murderer in a police uniform had methodically slaughtered 85 victims. The terrified victims fleeing Anders Behring Breivik ran and swam for their lives as they waited in horror for help that came too late for many, officials said yesterday.

A SWAT team dispatched to the killing field on Utoya island about 50 minutes after the first report of gunfire went by car because their helicopter wasn't on standby, said Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim. After the 20-minute ride, the emergency response was delayed another 20 minutes when the team couldn't find a boat to reach the island just a few hundred yards offshore, he said. ...

Although police wouldn't cross the frigid water to the island without a boat, teens desperately trying to flee the carnage swam to safety.

OK There are 10 pages I haven't read yet, so if I'm repeating stuff sorry.

I heard today that the available chopper pilots were on vacation.

That sounds sus to me, as you'd assume there would be backup, however, that is also the sort of thing someone with knowledge (or access to it) could take advantage of. Along the line of "if you're gonna do it do it then."

[Joe Hillshoist]

And yes they do happen all the time. All sorts of shit happens all the time, including people sitting around on their arses not doing anything cos of institutional paralysis while ordinary people get on with stuff.

While dozens of kids are in the process of getting murdered. Yep. Just another day at the races.

Someone remind me. Where am I?

We are talking about cops remember.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I made the point much earlier in the thread, and I'm pretty sure Stickdog has too: no "huge murderous conspiracy on the part of the entire oslo police force" is necessary, obviously. All it takes is one well-placed person, or a handful of highly-placed people, with the power to make and enforce decisions that thousands of underlings have to obey on pain of severe sanctions.

Such people exist, as you well know, and nothing whatsoever compels us to believe that all of their decisions are benevolently motivated.

Thats true, its a point I made in my first post about it ages ago. You agreed with that bit.

But if you want to say this or that about what happened do it properly. It seems like chopper pilots were on holiday and the nearestother one was 42 km away (about 5 minutes by chopper btw.)

That one of those "systempunkt" points I was referring to. Lack of access to a vital resource - airflight. This has a massive effect on transport. If you are used to flying and suddenly that becomes unavailable the transport becomes a huge issue.

Instead of bleating on about why it took so long have a look at what caused the delays cos thats the sort of place where your one or two or a handful of individuals will be if they are anywhere. If they are anywhere.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Apologize if this has been mentioned, but I read a CNN article about Glen Beck saying the island summer camp sounded like a "Hitler Youth Camp". What a dickhead. Brevik hated Muslims but like Beck, he hated liberals that much more. I'm disgusted with these filthy fascists.

Yeah I too noticed that with all the "Islamification this, Muslims that" crap he seems to serve his most vile hatred and conspiracy paranoia(and violence) toward so called "socialists". This is precisely what Beck does...where at the top of this shadowy chain sits a cabal of evil commies everywhere.

Events like this or OKC serve as the perfect way to say "so, youre anti government? Well this is what anti government views look like".

Its the MO of the Murdoch print media in my country.

Tho this guy 's alleged manifesto and so his worldview is basically pro government.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Hmmm...

It's breaking out all over: "About 59,100 results"

Assange = Breivik

http://www.google.ca/search?q=Anders+Be ... =firefox-a

Including spew like this on Answers.com:

What's the spiritual difference between Julian Assange and Anders Behring Breivik?

Last week I had a conversation with a fellow who was sure that Assange had raped children in Sweden. And he's not an intellectual lightweight, the man's got a PhD in scientific methodology. So now Assange and Wikileaks are being conflated with Scandinavian extremist terrorism? Nice.

By all accounts, his recent extradition appeal hearing went very well for him. The decision is pending but expected soon:

http://wikileaksaustraliancitizensallia ... ge-lawyer/

Honestly Assange is one person I would not say looked like Breivik. Breviek's face looks to round to me.

[stickdog99]

OK, now I am confused. All of these quotes come from an AP article. Since when do AP articles ravage Western police forces like this?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 6cd34a2be9

When Anders Behring Breivik launched his assault on the youth campers of Utoya Island, he expected Norway's special forces to swoop down and stop him at any minute. Instead, Delta Force police officers made the 25-mile journey by car — they have no helicopter — then had to be rescued by a civilian craft when their boat broke down as it tried to navigate a one-minute hop to the island. It took police more than 90 minutes to reach the gunman, who by then had mortally wounded 68 people. Breivik immediately dropped his guns and surrendered, having exceeded his wildest murderous expectations.


That's more wild-eyed than anything I have so far said on this thread and that's the AP talking. WTF?


"Children were being slaughtered for an hour and a half and the police should have stopped it much sooner," said Mads Andenas, a law professor at the University of Oslo whose niece was on the island and survived by hiding in the bushes. One of his students was killed. "Even taking all the extenuating circumstances into account, it is unforgivable," he said.


OK. That's me exactly now. But since when does the AP print anything I ever say about anything?


In a final act of bungling, police on Monday revised the island death toll down to 68, after initially miscounting the corpses at 86. Breivik's lawyer, Geir Lippestad, said Tuesday his client was surprised he even made it onto the island without being stopped by police, never mind that he was left to fire his assault rifle and handgun for so long.


Back again to more wild-eyed than I have been.


Norway's most infamous crimes before Friday involved the 1994 and 2004 thefts of artworks by its best-known painter, Edvard Munch. In the first theft, the robbers left their ladder propped up against an unlocked National Gallery window — and replaced Munch's "The Scream" with a mocking note: "Thanks for the poor security."

Fernando Reinares, former senior anti-terrorism adviser to the Spanish government, said Friday's attacks point to "an astonishing failure in police intelligence." He said a competent anti-terrorist agency would have identified Breivik before he struck because of his purchases of bomb-making ingredients and specialist weaponry.

"Norway is behind other Western European countries in adapting internal security structures and procedures to face terrorist challenges," Reinares said. "But there was also an amazing failure in police preparedness and reaction, both in terms of human resources and technical capabilities."

Andrew Silke, director of terrorism studies at the University of East London, called the police response "a bit Keystone Kops" because Norway's police were "just not used to dealing with something like this. The system was swamped."


Jesus. Talk about a pile on.


Andenas, the law professor, said he would have expected Norway's special forces to have trained to reach a popular retreat like Utoya within 15 minutes.

"Many people feel this was a very difficult situation, that one should take account of that and not be too critical of people who certainly tried to do their best. But it was just not good enough. The police action was too little and too slow. The cold truth is that many children who died out there should not have died."


Back to me again. The professorial voice of reason.

[justdrew]

There are good reasons for this. One critical difference between the good samaritans and the police is that the latter are armed.

the primary description of the shooter was: "dressed as police"

now the local cops don't know for sure how the Delta's are going to show up, but... any local cop who had gone to that island, would have looked like the shooter. in swoops a helicopter sharpshooter, and bang, we're down a cop or two.

Yep. Better to be down 20 kids than 2 cops.

I''m not endorsing the course of action, just pointing things out.

[Plutonia]

Joe, the physical resemblance doesn't need to go much further than tall and very fair.

They can be matched up in their particulars and what is said about them:

1. Manifestos? check
2. Blood on hands? check
3. Links between Scandinavia and England? check
4. Belong to secretive organization/society? check
5. Associated with youth activists? check
6. On trial? check
7. Authorities slow to respond? check

Those are the key signifiers, I think though there's prolly more I haven't thought of yet.

[Pierre d'Achoppement]

So anyway, speculating.. there's this focus on how this guy Anders Breivik is like a superintelligent intellectual evil villain, planning this on his own for 9 years and documenting every detail as proof. What to me seems more likely is we should see the guy as an actor. He probably has some major mental issues no doubt, and is an insecure individual looking for an identity. He grew up without a father, not a lot of real friends, no serious girlfriends. There are lots of young men like that and they can be nice or not, but they are all vulnerable to being used. In other words ideal as patsies and assets. His real father worked at an embassy and his stepdad in the army, so the spook connections are there. What happened maybe is some group noticed him, maybe invited him for some masonic rituals, isolated him further by giving him some money so he could buy a farm etc. Then said he was selected for a very special mission playing on his narcissistic side. Just take the blame for an event to be staged. 21 years in a norwegian prison maybe didnt sound so bad to him, in combination with the feeling of being able to do something perceived as useful, a goal in life and becoming famous. What I'm saying is, those sort of guys are usually easy to manipulate. I think it's more likely he is a bit dim than that hes superintelligent. All this on intuition and maybe projecting my own insecureties btw.

That's the other part: doesn't the whole package REEK of marketing exactly for the likes of us, eg internet"nerds" into computergames, conspiracies, the knight templars, freemasonry, etc? What with all the different posed photos, the facebook, the twitter, the hidden manifesto.. seems like any other viral marketing campaign for a new (internetmedia)product these days no? Lots of things to discover, lots of things to discuss for months to come. All the work of one supersmart guy? A marketing guru on top of a bombexpert and skillful shooter? Or did one team make the manifesto, and was it another team that did the shooting? And nobody can say that they could never find someone to do such a horrible thing, there;s lots of hardened military who are used to doing things exactly like that no? So with several european countries breaking down financially, generating real largescale protests, like in spain for example, bang suddenly there can appear one of these Knights Templar, nice spain marxist hunter badge and all. And noone can complain about policebrutality because its this mysterious group of internet neonazis. And everyone is now a suspect!

So that's what I think could have happened. The police wouldnt have to be in it, nor the judges, nor the prime minister etc, just one crackkiller, a patsy and a marketing team. So it's not even that big of a conspiracy! Also, Breivik was convinced hed be shot when they transported him to court and keeps babbling about multiple cells.