"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[Canadian_watcher]

Do you have any kids? I wouldn't hang up from that conversation without asking a few questions and giving some reassurance. I doubt seriously that many parents would. LOL yourself.

I'm a parent. I would.

[barracuda]

I wouldn't, but my point is that we don't know. Any conjecture regarding the events of the phone calls involves a series of assumptions about the behavior of the people involved. One assumption seems about as valid as the next in this setting.

[stickdog99]

How is it that the first ambulance arrived on at the opposite shore, 600 meters across the water from Utoya, a full 53 minutes before the police managed to get to Utoya?

Meanwhile, dozens of kids and young adults are being murdered during this time period. Don't you find the difference between the response of the ambulances and campers and that of the cops in the least bit striking?

Well, yes, the local police first arrived at the lakefront 19 minutes after the first ambulance was "in place" according to the emergency centre timeline, even though presumably both the ambulance and the police would come from Honefoss. There is a big difference, but was it deliberate? I don't have enough information yet to say for sure.

Why Honefoss? Isn't the police department in Sandvika closer?

[Canadian_watcher]

My point is that we don't know. Any conjecture regarding the events of the phone calls involves a series of assumptions about the behavior of the people involved. One assumption seems about as valid as the next in this setting.

sure, I get your point. A ficus would get your point by now. Well made.

[waugs]

Do you have any kids? I wouldn't hang up from that conversation without asking a few questions and giving some reassurance. I doubt seriously that many parents would. LOL yourself.

I'm a parent. I would.

you'd hang up on your kid? why?

[stickdog99]

I wouldn't, but my point is that we don't know. Any conjecture regarding the events of the phone calls involves a series of assumptions about the behavior of the people involved. One assumption seems about as valid as the next in this setting.

So because you claim you would waste time in an emergency that makes assuming other people would waste time in an emergency reasonable?

[barracuda]

I don't find it unreasonable or a waste of time to get some information from my child about the situation or their welfare before I hang up. Seems completely natural. I would definitely try and say a reassuring remark, and give the child my love. People do that, even in, perhaps especially in, emergencies. The only time wasting going on here is your insistence that your assumptions about the event are the only ones worth considering.

[stickdog99]

Do you have any kids? I wouldn't hang up from that conversation without asking a few questions and giving some reassurance. I doubt seriously that many parents would. LOL yourself.

I'm a parent. I would.

you'd hang up on your kid? why?

Look, even the kid tried to call the cops right before he called his dad. Why do you think he was calling his dad anyway? "I love you, son. Be careful. Please text me with updates." Click

Now look at your watch and tell us how long it takes to say that, even in a Nordic drawl.

[stickdog99]

I don't find it unreasonable or a waste of time to get some information from my child about the situation or their welfare before I hang up. Seems completely natural. I would definitely try and say a reassuring remark, and give the child my love. People do that, even in, perhaps especially in, emergencies. The only time wasting going on here is your insistence that your assumptions about the event are the only ones worth considering.

Script your conversation for us, please.

[DevilYouKnow]

I'm Norwegian. Nordic and VK hit the nail on the head about the culture difference. Despite superficial similarities, our culture, society and history is extremely different from America/Britain, so please keep that in mind.

Our police force is very small, and so is our military force. Probably shockingly small, to an American or Britain. Norwegian police has one helicopter, which is for obervation only and has no capacity for troop transportation. Besides, this helicopter is often not operational, either due to lack of funding (Oslo police district, which operates the helicopter, is chronically on a budget deficit) or, as in this case, due to the crew being on vacation. This sounds strange to you probably, but is completely normal to us.

Delta does not not have any helicopters, but can use Air force helicopters (Bell 416) stationed at Rygge for missions further away from Oslo. These helicopters are not on "stand-by" (to say the least).

When Delta was asked to respond to the shooting at Utøya, they were already sitting in their armed MB Gälendewagens at "Ground Zero" of the bombing in the center of Oslo (a video confirms this). Given this, driving was a no-brainer compared to scrambling helicopters from Rygge, and this has really been a non-issue here. The question of boats has not been raised at all.

Almost all the criticism of the police response has been in foreign media. Police here has received more praise than criticism, including by Utøya survivors. There is certainly no anger at the police whatsoever, that I've detected. Spontaneous applause has occurred, as was reported. People believe (as do I) that they did what they could with the resources they have.

Someone upthread asked how we can be proud of a police force that, in his view, did not respond nearly quickly enough. It is perhaps hard to understand, but we pride ourselves on not being a police state, on not having a paramilitary-style police, or an armed police. There are of course those, primarily on the right, who would like to see more "law and order" and to have a police more like those in other European countries, but they have not used this incident to further that view, so far.

Please understand that we have never had a real "shooting spree" in our national history ever before. What happened was something no one among us, except the perpetrator(s?), could ever have imagined.

It is slightly surreal to see page after page here of people discussing this issue which they're so far removed from and so ill equipped to have an informed opinion on. This is a small country - I know one person who was responsible in the chain of command in the police response, whose name has been mentioned in this thread or in the other one. I know several who were involved in the reponse in various functions. To suggest that anything was done to willfully delay the response is, from my perspective, insane. Maybe from your perspectives it makes sense. Good night.

[barracuda]

Thank you, Devil.

[Canadian_watcher]

Just for the record I've been on the side of "there are a thousand variables at play and I can see the time delay being non-nefarious"..

Also, as I've already stated, I think the delay was heinous and needs to be fully dissected so that changes can be made. The post above somewhere that mentions how 911 callers were brushed off is a perfect example of what I believe caused the delay and needs to be examined.

[Canadian_watcher]

Do you have any kids? I wouldn't hang up from that conversation without asking a few questions and giving some reassurance. I doubt seriously that many parents would. LOL yourself.

I'm a parent. I would.

you'd hang up on your kid? why?

Look, even the kid tried to call the cops right before he called his dad. Why do you think he was calling his dad anyway? "I love you, son. Be careful. Please text me with updates." Click

Now look at your watch and tell us how long it takes to say that, even in a Nordic drawl.

yes, precisely. it would be very painful to hang up, but hanging up would be the only sensible, logical thing to do. Believe it or not, I have been in a situation where my choice was to hang up and try the police in another province or stay on the phone and possibly listen to someone die. I *had* to hang up.

[solace]

I'm Norwegian. Nordic and VK hit the nail on the head about the culture difference. Despite superficial similarities, our culture, society and history is extremely different from America/Britain, so please keep that in mind.

Our police force is very small, and so is our military force. Probably shockingly small, to an American or Britain. Norwegian police has one helicopter, which is for obervation only and has no capacity for troop transportation. Besides, this helicopter is often not operational, either due to lack of funding (Oslo police district, which operates the helicopter, is chronically on a budget deficit) or, as in this case, due to the crew being on vacation. This sounds strange to you probably, but is completely normal to us.

Delta does not not have any helicopters, but can use Air force helicopters (Bell 416) stationed at Rygge for missions further away from Oslo. These helicopters are not on "stand-by" (to say the least).

When Delta was asked to respond to the shooting at Utøya, they were already sitting in their armed MB Gälendewagens at "Ground Zero" of the bombing in the center of Oslo (a video confirms this). Given this, driving was a no-brainer compared to scrambling helicopters from Rygge, and this has really been a non-issue here. The question of boats has not been raised at all.

Almost all the criticism of the police response has been in foreign media. Police here has received more praise than criticism, including by Utøya survivors. There is certainly no anger at the police whatsoever, that I've detected. Spontaneous applause has occurred, as was reported. People believe (as do I) that they did what they could with the resources they have.

Someone upthread asked how we can be proud of a police force that, in his view, did not respond nearly quickly enough. It is perhaps hard to understand, but we pride ourselves on not being a police state, on not having a paramilitary-style police, or an armed police. There are of course those, primarily on the right, who would like to see more "law and order" and to have a police more like those in other European countries, but they have not used this incident to further that view, so far.

Please understand that we have never had a real "shooting spree" in our national history ever before. What happened was something no one among us, except the perpetrator(s?), could ever have imagined.

It is slightly surreal to see page after page here of people discussing this issue which they're so far removed from and so ill equipped to have an informed opinion on. This is a small country - I know one person who was responsible in the chain of command in the police response, whose name has been mentioned in this thread or in the other one. I know several who were involved in the reponse in various functions. To suggest that anything was done to willfully delay the response is, from my perspective, insane. Maybe from your perspectives it makes sense. Good night.

Do you see any profound changes in anything as a result of all this? The PM has been pretty laid back..."more Democracy," kind of thing.

[Sounder]

Devilyouknow wrote...

It is slightly surreal to see page after page here of people discussing this issue which they're so far removed from and so ill equipped to have an informed opinion on. This is a small country - I know one person who was responsible in the chain of command in the police response, whose name has been mentioned in this thread or in the other one. I know several who were involved in the reponse in various functions. To suggest that anything was done to willfully delay the response is, from my perspective, insane. Maybe from your perspectives it makes sense. Good night.

Thanks Devil

I was thinking earlier today that Piers Morgan is basically a voyeur, it seems he is not the only one.

Appreciation of the meaning or implications of recent events, let alone History, let alone coherency of thought do not stand a chance as long as tabloid culture reigns supreme.

Suck on that, and sure, call me names if it makes you feel better.