1962 Gulf of Tonkin LIMPET op = 1964 'Incredible Mr. Limpet'

[mrthegoat]

Hugh, it's an interesting theory. Can you test it? Anecdotes don't prove much of anything, especially to this group. On the basis of your theory, can you make any predictions?

In situations like this, of course, it's difficult to offer predictions, because mostly what we're doing is correlating past events. We can't, of course, predict what the USG will want to hide in the future, but we can imagine what sorts of trouble they'll be wanting to get in to (Iran, for example, though I think we've already covered "300" and "Alexander" as possibilities). Another possibility would be the '08 election: certainly we can all agree that the PTB want another obstructionist Republican in office so they can continue the occupation of Iraq: what sorts of keywords might they proffer to enhance their chances? Something to trash opposing candidates, maybe?

[mrthegoat]

Hugh, it's an interesting theory. Can you test it? Anecdotes don't prove much of anything, especially to this group. On the basis of your theory, can you make any predictions?

In situations like this, of course, it's difficult to offer predictions, because mostly what we're doing is correlating past events. We can't, of course, predict what the USG will want to hide in the future, but we can imagine what sorts of trouble they'll be wanting to get in to (Iran, for example, though I think we've already covered "300" and "Alexander" as possibilities). Another possibility would be the '08 election: certainly we can all agree that the PTB want another obstructionist Republican in office so they can continue the occupation of Iraq; what sorts of keywords might they proffer to enhance their chances? Something to trash opposing candidates, maybe?

[p.s. I don't post here very often, and it appears that this is posting twice. If it is, I apologize!)

[Dreams End]

If Hugh could test the theory...he wouldn't be Hugh.

So, in 1962 a limpet mine blows up early...so to deal with this disaster, they name a movie about a man named after a fish "Limpet"...


TWO YEARS LATER.

Nevermind gulf of Tonkin...that was spun as a Viet Cong attack...no need to hijack anything.

Or were they simply thinking 30 years ahead so that they could pre-empt limpet searches on the internet?

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

If Hugh could test the theory...he wouldn't be Hugh.

One of the ways to test a hypothesis is to see if it is repeatable, that is, are there multiple examples and empirical evidence of a principle in action, not just an isolated incident.
I have found multiple examples that match high-correlation with scandal or theme that can adversely affect public opinion. That is confirmation, not "confirmation bias."

So, in 1962 a limpet mine blows up early...so to deal with this disaster, they name a movie about a man named after a fish "Limpet"...

TWO YEARS LATER.

The limpet mine terrorism against North Vietnam was ongoing from 1961 to atleast 1964 when the Pentagon took it over from CIA and probably continued even as overt war commenced.

Production commenced in 1963 for 'The Incredible Mr. Limpet' right after the captured US scuba sabateurs were put on trial and even confessed to their operations.

So protecting young minds from exposure to the old Operation Vulcan disaster and a potential future one during ongoing operations makes sense.

DE, have you read the transcripts and reports from the Senate's June 1962 hearings on "Military Cold War Education and Speech Review Policies?" I have them.

The PR disasters of the 5/60 U2 incident, Ike's 1/61 warning against the MI complex, the 4/61 Bay of Pigs disaster, and public episodes from right-wing Generals like Walker all led to a renewed effort to get hold of the soldier's and public's mind with psy-ops.

And CIA control of TV and movies was a prime tool.

Nevermind gulf of Tonkin...that was spun as a Viet Cong attack...no need to hijack anything.

Or were they simply thinking 30 years ahead so that they could pre-empt limpet searches on the internet?

The Official Gulf of Tonkin hoax was used to portray the US as the aggrieved victim of attacks. So covering up the limpet mine disaster of Operation Vulcan fits in that chronology and tactic to amplify a war into overt form that had been covert for years.

Maybe if someone named Heinlein was involved you'd make the obvious connections, DE.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

But what about all the millions of uncontrolled uses of the word "limpet"

Now you are leaving out the formative influence of movies on youth.
Ever heard of context? Agenda setters? Role modeling? Viral marketing? Catch phrases?

Just thought I'd remind you.

"Hogan!"

"Don't be a girlie man."

"Lucy, you got a lotta 'splaining to do.'

"You cant handle the truth!"

"Life is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're going to get."

"Show me the money!"

"May the force be with you."

[robert d reed]

...the word is roaming free at fishmongers, biology lessons and naval discussions etc worldwide.... forming who knows what random and uncontrollable associations in different people's minds?

!!!

[jingofever]

So protecting young minds from exposure to the old Operation Vulcan disaster and a potential future one during ongoing operations makes sense.

I must be daft because I don't see how "The Incredible Mr. Limpet" can protect young minds from "Operation Vulcan."

[philipacentaur]

You're not the daft one, jingofever.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

So protecting young minds from exposure to the old Operation Vulcan disaster and a potential future one during ongoing operations makes sense.

I must be daft because I don't see how "The Incredible Mr. Limpet" can protect young minds from "Operation Vulcan."

Slogging though the obvious...
....limpet mines were used for US terrorism. Mr. Limpet friendlies-up the word.

And Mr. Spock's Vulcan "intelligence" on Star Trek then friendlied-up the keyword in of the US terrorism called 'Operation Vulcan.'

That the US was a terrorist country starting wars of aggression against Vietnam just might be motive for conditioning kids during the Cold War. Ya think?

[robert d reed]

Depends.

[Dreams End]

I'm sure there were all kinds of psyops to divert attention from our spin events in Vietnam. But even without "limpets" we still have words like "mines" "Gulf of Tonkin" and to use your examples, "U2". Actually, given my opinion of Bono, I'd be more than willing to see the band U2 as psyops...but they were a little late to deal with the shootdown. And there's a LOT more to the deep politics behind Bono than the name of the band, I feel certain.

Meanwhile, and I swear I'm not making this up just to mess with you, my initial introduction to JFK conspiracy was in the film JFK. In fact, despite my lower opinion of Stone due to some of his films and having spent a few days with him one time in the jungles of Chiapas (long story), I have to admit that his film Salvador also was my first introduction into U.S. policy in Central America. It inspired me to start looking deeper...and it turned out you didn't have too look too hard to start finding the truth.

Platoon was not my first intro to Vietnam, though that film, through Charlie Sheen, did educate me to the fact that there was obviously hairstyling mousse even back then.

You claim an incredible level of micromanagement in Hollywood and yet JFK was allowed to come out. Salvador was allowed to come out.

Meanwhile, the bad guys put out a whole movie just to deal with one WORD of Vietnam? Personally, I think the word "mine" would be most available in most people's minds...scuba + mine....

I'd heard of those incidents but I would never have been able to remember "limpet" mine...but then again, I didn't know the name of the Knotts film either.

We all agree that the CIA and other aspects of our military industrial complex find ways to get their message out in films. One way is just to get funding for a film. Look at Battlefield Earth or whatever that Scientology film was. You can easily funnel money in a variety of ways into the film industry to get films made. And I am working with a homeschool kid and for history I've ordered a dvd of some of the old propaganda films from the fifties. Not hard to find.

So you can, Hugh, PLEASE, for the love of God, stop trying to support keyword hijacking with general explanations of government cahoots with the film industry. There are books written on this, and you can just go watch Rocky 4 or Red Dawn Rising or Blackhawk Down or any number of films to see how it works. And even when there is no direct military or CIA direction, big movie moguls tend to think like the elites they are, and manage to keep any film messages, even oppositional ones, within acceptable bounds. Usually, anyway.

It's not government attempts at propaganda within the mass media we dispute, though we might disagree as to which films represent this...

It's simply your keyword hijacking idea. You have not one shred of evidence that at any time some film was named something...I'm not talking about the content, since you never do...but simply named something specifically to draw attention away from one single word associated with some government malfeasance.

You have your own assumptions. Here's a movie with word "X". Word "X" also had signficance in some other way. Therefore, word "X" was inserted into a title to draw attention away from its other meaning. It's all self-confirming. You have LOTS of examples because you, yourself, decided they were examples.

Meanwhile, you have not satisfied even yourself, I think, with your explanation of JFK. I remind you that it did 200 million at the box office...those are HUGE numbers for a film, especially in 1991. It won two Oscars and was nominated for a score of other awards. It had major stars and is one reason I am only 2 degrees from Kevin Bacon myself.

It is very clear to me that, given my own experience with having come to know the details of the JFK assassination from that film, if the film had not been made, many people, especially pre-internet which was not nearly as big when the film came out, would not have paid attention to JFK assassination theories at all. It brought the topic to the forefront of national debate.

So, on the one hand the bad guys are allowing JFK to get made and on the other they counter with movies that have the word "Pain" in them?

Actually, Hugh, I believe in the idea of concept hijacking. That is, I think movies get made that take ideas like Manchurian candidates or CIA coups or whatever, and Hollywood them up so we all think "oh, that's just a movie plot" or whatever. I would never claim to know which films do this as they often do well at the box office, which I think is most often the motivation for making a film.

But even that, if it's at all true, is risky. Because in another way it opens people up to the possibility. I have always been interested in the disconnect Americans have. They can often accept a movie plot line of the CIA overthrowing or assassinating someone and yet in the real world these ideas are often not accepted. And this IS a result of some very clever propaganda techniques.

But I'll tell you one such technique right now, because frankly, Hugh, you're soaking in it.

And that's to take a genuine story and have someone rush in, often a government "insider", to give us 80% truth and 20% disinfo. And then sit back and watch what happens. The disinfo portion, like some kind of meme blob, eats up the truth.

Notice how Prouty worked the Federal Reserve into his JFK theories, for example. Or how he suggested Churchill killed FDR. Larouche, of course, is the master, and so much of this tracks back to him. If activists ever really come to understand how Larouche operates, we might have a chance...because there are a lot of his type out there.

You are looking at Prouty's spotlight associations in the wrong way. So is Berlet, for that matter. If JFK was assassinated by our intelligence agencies, and I feel on solid ground suggesting he was, then JFK the movie should have discredited that theory. It didn't...but only because Stone had a much saner tech consultant and they learned of Prouty's associations early enough to try to contain the PR damage that would have ensued. Prouty would put in stuff that wasn't true and easy to dispute. Stone's other researcher caught a lot of this, but it could have easily done a lot more damage to the film.

And THAT'S how these guys work. They get sent straight from the Pentagon, infiltrate some movement or another by dangling the "insider info" carrot, and then start interjecting bullshit which then deligitimizes the whole topic. I've seen it so often it makes me want to scream.

(Note: Oliver Stone is another story in himself. I used JFK as an example, but there's a lot of parapolitics behind Stone and I don't mean to suggest he's a hero in a white hat. Exhibit A, his production of the cable movie about the McMartin trial. Oh, and his 9/11 movie. In fact, Stone is part of the network that I've been interested in who seem to lurk behind so much of this conspiracy disinfo. Stone is probably the most complicated agenda to unravel in my view.

My primary theory about him is that he had a great heart at one time, or at least great politics, but that he is extremely compromised given his personal behavior. All I can say is, if you watch the credits of just about any of his films of the last 15 years or so, you will find in them the name of a former big-time drug dealer who was Stone's personal supplier and is now a film executive. I know this, because we consulted the man at one point about trying to smuggle someone in danger out of Mexico. He gave us all kinds of handy tips about how to utilize Native American reservations for unscheduled stops without alerting the FAA to changes in flight plans. We didn't end up using the plan, and I hate to even out the guy, given the help he gave us...but that's reality. Organized Crime...whatever that means...and drug money etc also play a role in H'wood. And given who I now realize had infiltrated our ranks, the plan would likely have been a catastrophe.

Meanwhile, with the McMartin thing, and the 9/11 film and maybe add to that Natural Born Killers (hey Hugh...you DO know the parapolitics around Woody Harrelson, don't you?) and clearly he's been playing for the "other team" at times. Maybe the whole time.)

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Hugh, it's an interesting theory. Can you test it? Anecdotes don't prove much of anything, especially to this group. On the basis of your theory, can you make any predictions?

I've already posted on upcoming JFK disinfo season use of keywords involving Ruth Paine who was a spook helping to patsy-up Lee Harvey Oswald.

A movie about a female jewel thief is in production called 'Who is Doris Payne?'

I also found a 1997 book called 'Alias: Paine' that appears to be KH related to the damaging info on CIA assassination that came out that year. The murder of Abe Lincoln has long been used to reinforce the lone gunman narrative.

I just watched 'The Shooter' and it was even worse than I anticipated.

Besides being a mirror of Oswald's story as told by the Warren Commission it is also recruiting (natch) and especially desensitization for seeing the Zapruder film. I just saw an absurd number of sniper headshots and sprays of blood with realistic sounds.
But all as good things against bad guys.

[jingofever]

Slogging though the obvious...
....limpet mines were used for US terrorism. Mr. Limpet friendlies-up the word.

And Mr. Spock's Vulcan "intelligence" on Star Trek then friendlied-up the keyword in of the US terrorism called 'Operation Vulcan.'

That the US was a terrorist country starting wars of aggression against Vietnam just might be motive for conditioning kids during the Cold War. Ya think?

So what happens if somebody previously exposed to "The Incredible Mr. Limpet" stumbles upon that article about Team Vulcan or some other incident involving limpet mines?

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

...don't be one.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Actually, given my opinion of Bono, I'd be more than willing to see the band U2 as psyops...but they were a little late to deal with the shootdown. And there's a LOT more to the deep politics behind Bono than the name of the band, I feel certain.

U2, great example of how a keyword gets different meanings through time.
People still think Gary Powers was shot down even though Richard Helms admitted he wasn't to Congress. The May 1, 1960 U2 incident points at inside job sabotage of the Eisenhower-Kruschev peace talks according to some knowledgeable people. And that's worth diluting in American youth culture.

Recall that Hollywood advertized for guys to get the job being the safe pop group 'The Monkees' when MHCHAOS was mitigating the influence on youth of the Beatles and Rolling Stones and then murdering Hendrix, Morrison, etc.

And I think that efforts are made to move away from a meaning and seeing if another will stick. Sometimes things work out by themselves but if spooks want it so then someone will get a contract or good promotion or be made an award winner etc.

That 1953 pdf of letters from CIA mole at Paramount Luigi Luschari back to his Psychological Strategy Board handler indicated he could affect titles, casting, directors, etc. LOTS of influence at the micro-glyphic level. So yes, hiring a guy named Oswalt/Oswald for a Disney flick has precedent when today these production companies aren't just massaged by CIA assets, they ARE CIA.

Meanwhile, and I swear I'm not making this up just to mess with you, my initial introduction to JFK conspiracy was in the film JFK. In fact, despite my lower opinion of Stone due to some of his films and having spent a few days with him one time in the jungles of Chiapas (long story), I have to admit that his film Salvador also was my first introduction into U.S. policy in Central America.

Examine more closely the psychology and net effect of film on the culture at large.
Even gestures to expose can act to forestall change by breaking tension. Arundhati Roy writes of how charities in disaster states can perpetuate the bad system by offering palliatives.

I think the palliative effect of film is a tremendous asset to spooks that they capitalize on relentlessly.

A fictionalization of realities can serve to polarize the audience between
>those who already know and thus no ground is lost plus they are given new images to process events with that can mitigate the horror and outrage even though this may seem counter-intuitive. (Examine that dynamic. "Coping allows status quo." False hopes from seeing topic covered, etc. The happy ending technique was used in 'Brubaker' after prison riots in the US. In the film the good guy warden sees the corruption and fixes it. Yaaay!)

>and those who don't know the reality and are now even deeper into myths through processing the topics solely throough the psy-ops device. 'X-Files' syndrome, so to speak.

It inspired me to start looking deeper...and it turned out you didn't have too look too hard to start finding the truth.

Was the fictionalization a net gain or net loss over the whole audience AT THE TIME?
Did it keep the director from an even more damaging topic?
Could the director then be discredited and used to damage his previous work?
Was control through Mockingbird sufficient that some obscure VHS is no threat?
-all to be considered.

You claim an incredible level of micromanagement in Hollywood and yet JFK was allowed to come out. Salvador was allowed to come out.

The history and documents of the "incredible level of micromanagement" exist independent of my claims about how they are deployed.

Did you read how to properly "insert a Negro" into the background as mandated by the Psychological Strategy Board in these documents from 1953?-
http://www.iamhist.org/journal/eldridge.pdf

Meanwhile, the bad guys put out a whole movie just to deal with one WORD of Vietnam? Personally, I think the word "mine" would be most available in most people's minds...scuba + mine....

You are correct about "scuba."
"Scuba" certainly was getting friendlied-up through 'Sea Hunt' and then 'Flipper.'
Or were dolphins just the penguins for "scuba terrorism?"

Perhaps dolphins were getting weaponized at the time, too.
Bet they were because the 1973 movie 'Day of the Dolphin' was based on a 1967 novel which mirrored John Lilly's "dolphin intelligence" project which began in 1959 in the Virgin Islands. Looks like cover for US intelligence to train dolphins to be weapons, doesn't it?

So I think this scuba terrorism with limpet mines was going on when Lloyd Bridges was on TV training his sons to patrol as scuba divers and Flipper the dolphin was their family dog, Lassie with a blow hole who can also blow up ships.

In 1973 a George C. Scott movie very different from the book was made about presidential assassination with LIMPET mines by dolphins...perhaps to woo-woo both dangerous topics.



Looks to me like the move to cloud DA Jim Garrison's work in snicker-factor was combined with fictionalization and re-defining of LIMPET MINES. "It's just a movie."

Check this out for leads:
According to wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Dolphin
It was while Roman Polanski was scouting locations for 'Day of the Dolphin' in 8/69 (!) that his wife, Sharon Tate, was killed during the Charles Manson episode.
Another director took over. Any connection? Polanski compromise the psy-ops, perhaps, and get used to put out a message to Hollywood?
Heck of a 'coincidence' of timing and juxtaposition of events.

I'd heard of those incidents but I would never have been able to remember "limpet" mine...but then again, I didn't know the name of the Knotts film either.

Context. I saw 'The Incredible Mr. Limpet' as a kid and listened to adults argue endlessly about whether or not the massive death was worth the price of containing Communism.
It would be a different argument if it was known as a war of aggression and terrorism.
Just like today.

You have to put the release of the movie into TIME and the corresponding events plus the evolution of media psy-ops which took a big uptick during the Kennedy years when things started going wrong just as the war hoax was being revved up.

The early post-Vietnam years are rich with psy-ops easily discerned.

DE, if you can pick up a copy of Disney's 1978 thin picture book for kids called 'The Black Hole' I will show you page by page multiple keyword hijackings and say-it-outloud pictograms that exonerate the CIA and justify the abuses exposed 1972-1977. Plus recruiting boys.
Even the Gehlen Organisation is in there. I swear to gods.

I love the use of the name of a mystery ship caught in the pull of the (commie) 'Black Hole,'Cygnus.' As in....Saigon/US. Cute, ay? The phonetics of different reading levels are built in to the space adventure.

There's a giant red killer robot controlled by Dr. Reinhart. The red menace and our Nazi ally. The good guys in space need parts for their ship and Dr. Reinhart provides them. They say "Thanks, Dr. Reinhart." lol.
((Again, the 'd' and 't' are interchangeable when seeing the word, like 'Oswalt' and 'Oswald.')

It is one of the most KH-heavy examples I've ever found and it reflects the atmosphere of those 'Family Jewels' days at CIA and perhaps the more-is-better application of the keyword technique already deployed in more subtle ways.

But the keyword hijacking device is so over-used that it shows the scam, just like 'The Incredible Mr. Limpet.'

Find a copy on ebay or whatever but those 19 pages are Langley KH high octane drug and a rune stone of techniques used in many products.