Arctic Updates

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Postby Ben D » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:24 am

You do know that spacecraft remote sensing platforms sample surface temperature in grid size elements, eg. square kilometers, and air temperature at a number of differing atmospheric altitudes, and this only when the S/C passes overhead the sampled area.
Satellite images may be impressive, but unless the data used to make these images is sufficiently comprehensive, and sampled sufficiently often, often over a good number of years, they don't really mean a lot in terms of determing climate change.

To have full confidence in these satellite images, one needs to be provided with all the associated technical information involved in the data collection, and to have the technical and scientific understanding to do a proper analysis to then determine if the researcher has done real science or is merely 'cherry picking' selective parameters of the full suite of remote sensed data available, of say a NOAA sun-sychronized polar orbiting weather satellite. Don't imagine for a moment that satellite remote sensed data can't be processed 'scientifically' to get the result desired. That is precisely why it is that there is so much conjecture about what it all means in terms of present analysis and the future trend.

I reiterate, the most important first step is to find a funding source whose sponsors have no financial, political, philosophical, or scientific conflict of interest in the result, and unfortunately this would seem pretty unrealistic in the short term. It is not a matter of me wanting to delay, the GW lobby has concluded that it's own data is correct and all others are wrong, but in the mind of some, their conclusion is premature.

I do go through intermediators, but not of the religious kind, nor of the scientific!

My dear winkler, it is not my intention to try and dissuade you from your present position, but merely to post relevant stuff on the subject as it emerges.
Likewise I do not object to your right to post what you consider relevant and appropriate.
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Postby wintler2 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:17 am

Ben D wrote:You do know that spacecraft remote sensing platforms sample surface temperature in grid size elements, eg. square kilometers, and air temperature at a number of differing atmospheric altitudes, and this only when the S/C passes overhead the sampled area.
I do actually, having worked multiple Ikonos & Landsat images from raw data to georeferenced and classified maps. So?

Ben D wrote:Satellite images may be impressive, but unless the data used to make these images is sufficiently comprehensive, and sampled sufficiently often, often over a good number of years, they don't really mean a lot in terms of determing climate change. To have full confidence in these satellite images, one needs to be provided with all the associated technical information involved in the data collection, and to have the technical and scientific understanding to do a proper analysis to then determine if the researcher has done real science or is merely 'cherry picking' selective parameters of the full suite of remote sensed data available, of say a NOAA sun-sychronized polar orbiting weather satellite. Don't imagine for a moment that satellite remote sensed data can't be processed 'scientifically' to get the result desired. That is precisely why it is that there is so much conjecture about what it all means in terms of present analysis and the future trend.

Duh, thats why decades of data are used, from readings taken by ships at sea, from disposable and retrieved bouys, and by rem.sensing instruments towed behind planes and attached to satellites. You talk as if it all hung on a few images, which is just ignorant.

Ben D wrote:I reiterate, the most important first step is to find a funding source whose sponsors have no financial, political, philosophical, or scientific conflict of interest in the result, and unfortunately this would seem pretty unrealistic in the short term. It is not a matter of me wanting to delay, the GW lobby has concluded that it's own data is correct and all others are wrong, but in the mind of some, their conclusion is premature.
But you do want delay, and this a century after Arhenius identified and calculated the problem, three decades after the IPCC first met to work out how to get the science past the corporate & political whores.

You still can't name a flaw, yet you still parrot ExxonMobils "more research needed" - hence, egotistical timewaster is the nicest thingt i can say about you.

wintler2 wrote:
Ben D wrote:All I know is that sea temperature go up and sea temperature go down

Where is your data for arctic sea temp trending up?
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Postby Fat Lady Singing » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:15 am

Penguin wrote:Translation from finnish by me, published today in an environmental newsletter.


And thank you very much for doing it! In fact, thanks to you and Wintler and others who have put forward many resources for the science behind the headlines.
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Postby wintler2 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:14 pm

Arctic warming leading to 'regime change' in North Atlantic ecosystems

UK Telegraph 7 Nov 08

The planet is experiencing some of the most dramatic climate changes in mankind's history, according to a new study.
...
"The rate of warming we are seeing is unprecedented in human history," said oceanographer Prof Charles Greene who led the study published in the journal Ecology.

The study looked at the climate record to gain a better understanding of melting Arctic ice sheets and glaciers and the impact on the North Atlantic. They found there had been periods of rapid cooling in the past when temperatures had dropped by as much as 10ºC in only a few years but they found nothing to match the current rate of warming.

The huge amounts – or 'pulses' – of fresh water melt over the past 10 years had led to clearly identifiable shifts in the distribution of plankton.

Microscopic algae previously found in the Pacific Ocean was now occurring in the North Atlantic for the first time in 800,000 years while a number of species of North Atlantic plankton were now being found much further south.

Both were indications that there had been a major change in the circulation patterns in the Arctic and Atlantic Oceans. ..

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Postby Ben D » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:16 am

Financial meltdown defrocks deceit of man-made global warming

Faulty science, misrepresentation of data and malfeasance

By Dr. Tim Ball
Wednesday, October 22, 2008

Frequently after a presentation someone will ask me the rhetorical question, “So, you are telling us the majority of scientists, the IPCC, and National Academies of Science are all wrong.” It is more than the usual consensus argument, which says you must be wrong because the majority disagrees. It implies it is not credible to believe so many people are deceived. The consensus argument is counteracted by the point that consensus is not a scientific fact. The second implication was more difficult to counter. Not any more! Now the massive failure of the financial markets and financial systems shows how a majority of people including world leaders, politicians, academics, business leaders and the media were fooled.

The financial debacle and the climate change misdirection fit Abraham Lincoln’s dictum, “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.” Maybe now politicians the public and the politicians will acknowledge that they can and have been fooled about climate change.

A few were warning about the problems, but they were easily marginalized. Evidence of cracks in the system were papered over and dismissed as anomalies. Some people and companies were pursued and prosecuted for misrepresentation of data and malfeasance, but they were dismissed as isolated rogue cases, not part of a serious systemic failure of the financial world. Governments, including politicians and bureaucrats, either didn’t understand or pretended everything was in order leading to actions that ignored the basics and made matters worse. Dow Jones plummeted from an all-time high in 2007 and the fallacy and house of cards of the world financial system was exposed. How were so many people misled? How could a system with so many flaws, failures, misconceptions and misdirection persist? A list of explanations includes; greed, lack of understanding of a complex system, exploitation of economic opportunities by a few with sociopath tendencies, the standard Emperor has no clothes syndrome. Greed overrode fear and lack of understanding as people who didn’t know a derivative from a hedge fund pursued wealth, the standard of security in a monetary world.

The climate change issue is very similar. A few were warning about the problems, but they were easily marginalized. Identification of faulty science, misrepresentation of data and malfeasance were dismissed as isolated rogue cases not part of a serious systemic thwarting of science and the scientific method. Governments, including politicians and bureaucrats, either didn’t understand or completely misidentified the problems leading to actions that ignored the basics and created unworkable or destructive legislation such as Kyoto or carbon taxes. How were so many people misled? How could a system with so many flaws, failures, misconceptions and misdirection persist? A list of explanations includes; fear, lack of understanding of a complex system, exploitation of economic opportunities by a few with sociopath tendencies, the standard Emperor has no clothes syndrome. Fear overrode greed and lack of understanding as people who didn’t know a greenhouse effect from radiation balance pursued environmentalism, the standard of security in a developed world.

The financial situation is not my area of expertise so I will not comment. However, proposals to deal with climate change are completely misdirected and potentially more damaging to people and economies than the financial. Many governments used the downturn in the economy as an excuse not to act. As Frank O’Donnell notes, The state of economic turmoil throws up a whole new question mark over climate change legislation. It was already an uphill struggle and the state of the economy has made the angle of that hill even steeper. I’m not expecting any economic-wide effort to introduce the cap and trade measures to come bouncing on to the Senate floor any time soon.” (Link)

In Europe it’s the same story

European Union nations began picking apart Monday a vast package to combat climate change as their industries suffer under the weight of the global financial crisis. Italy, whose Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi threatened last week to veto the plans, led calls for significant changes to be made and demanded a review mechanism, saying it was not the only nation ready to take a stand.

Image
We cannot stop climate change because we, or our CO2, are not the cause. There is no record of any duration for any time period in which CO2 increase precedes a temperature increase. Even if all countries implemented the complete Kyoto Protocol the difference in atmospheric CO2 would be undetectable. Saying we must adapt to climate change appears to avoid the issue but ignores that all adaptation plans are for warming. Evidence for cooling continues despite contrary comments. They say 2000 - 08 was warmer than previous decades, but this ignores the downward trend - a trend contradicting the IPCC prediction as this plot shows. (Compare the purple line (actual trend with the IPCC prediction orange/brown line).

Despite persistent failures of the IPCC predictions, most politicians are fooled into believing CO2 is a problem and the cause of climate change. Even if they don’t accept, they believe it is political suicide to assume otherwise. They accept the argument that all those prestigious groups can’t be wrong. Sorry, but they can and are.

Abraham Lincoln’s dictum applies to climate change. Environmental extremists will continue to be fooled; those who were not fooled will have no pleasure in “I told you so;” and we only need enough people to realize they’ve been fooled to force or allow politicians to face reality.

“Dr. Tim Ball is a renowned environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg.

Dr. Ball employs his extensive background in climatology and other fields as an advisor to the International Climate Science Coalition, Friends of Science and the Frontier Centre for Public Policy.”

Dr. Ball can be reached at: Letters@canadafreepress.com

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Postby wintler2 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:26 am

Ben D wrote:Financial meltdown defrocks deceit of man-made global warming
Dr. Tim Ball ..

“Dr. Tim Ball is .. an advisor to the International Climate Science Coalition, Friends of Science and the Frontier Centre for Public Policy.”


Ben D is spamming again, and straight from PR land..
Sourcewatch: ..International Climate Science Coalition ..
It has been found[2] that the web sites of the International Climate Science Coalition, the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition, and the Australian Climate Science Coalition are all hosted by a single Internet service provider in Arizona.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... _Coalition

The article itself is 98% quacking and 2% data, the 2% being one reference to an unexplained figure with an illegible source. And he's offtopic.

Is it really fine with the mods that all this poster seems to do is spam bullshit from PR land? Then might as well get straight ads in here too. Drink coke, kids!
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Postby Ben D » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:43 am

Please steady down winkler2, most of the articles that I've posted are by people who IMHO, are much more knowledgeable than you. Your idea to want to censor articles that you disagree with is somewhat extreme. If these conditions persist, please seek support and fellowship with some good friends.

Take the greenhouse gasbags with a grain of salt

Bjorn Lomborg

October 15, 2008

HAVE you noticed how environmental campaigners almost inevitably say that not only is global warming happening and bad, but also that what we are seeing is even worse than expected?

This is odd, because any reasonable understanding of how science proceeds would expect that, as we refine our knowledge, we find that things are sometimes worse and sometimes better than we expected, and that the most likely distribution would be about 50-50. Environmental campaigners, however, almost invariably see it as 100-0.

If we are regularly being surprised in just one direction, if our models get blindsided by an ever-worsening reality, that does not bode well for our scientific approach.

Indeed, one can argue that if the models constantly get something wrong, it is probably because the models are wrong. And if we cannot trust our models, we cannot know what policy action to take if we want to make a difference.

Yet if new facts constantly show us that the consequences of climate change are getting worse and worse, high-minded arguments about the scientific method might not carry much weight. Certainly, this seems to be the prevailing bet in the spin on global warming. It is, again, worse than we thought and, despite our failing models, we will gamble on knowing just what to do: cut CO2 emissions dramatically.

But it is simply not correct that climate data are systematically worse than expected; in many respects, they are spot on, or even better than expected. That we hear otherwise is an indication of the media's addiction to worst-case stories, but that makes a poor foundation for smart policies.

The most obvious point about global warming is that the planet is heating up. It has warmed about 1C over the past century and is predicted by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to warm between 1.6C and 3.8C this century, mainly owing to increased CO2.

An average of all 38 available standard runs from the IPCC shows that models expect a temperature increase in this decade of about 0.2C.

But this is not at all what we have seen. And this is true for all surface temperature measures and even more so for both satellite measures. Temperatures in this decade have not been worse than expected; in fact, they have not even been increasing. They have actually decreased by between 0.01C and 0.1C a year.

On the most important indicator of global warming, temperature development, we ought to hear that the data are actually much better than expected.

Likewise, and arguably much more significantly, the heat content of the world's oceans has been dropping for the past four years where we have measurements. Whereas energy in terms of temperature can disappear relatively easily from the light atmosphere, it is unclear where the heat from global warming should have gone, and certainly this is again much better than expected.

We hear constantly about how the Arctic sea ice is disappearing faster than expected, and this is true. But most serious scientists also allow that global warming is only part of the explanation. Another part is that the so-called Arctic oscillation of wind patterns over the Arctic Ocean is in a state that it does not allow build-up of old ice but immediately flushes most ice into the North Atlantic.

More important, we rarely hear that the Antarctic sea ice is not only not declining but is above average for the past year. IPCC models would expect declining sea ice in both hemispheres but, whereas the Arctic is doing worse than expected, Antarctica is doing better.

Ironically, the Associated Press, along with many other news outlets, told us in 2007 that the "Arctic is screaming" and that the Northwest Passage was open "for the first time in recorded history". Yet the BBC reported in 2000 that the fabled Northwest Passage was already without ice.

We are constantly inundated with stories of how sea levels will rise, and how one study after another finds that it will be much worse than what the IPCC predicts. But most models find results within the IPCC range of a sea-level increase of 18cm to 59cm this century. This is, of course, why the thousands of IPCC scientists projected that range. Yet studies claiming 1m or more obviously make for better headlines.

Since 1992, we have had satellites measuring the rise in global sea levels and they have shown a stable increase of 3.2mm a year: spot on compared with the IPCC projection. Moreover, over the past two years, sea levels have not increased at all; actually, they show a slight drop. Should we not be told that this is much better than expected?

Hurricanes were the stock image of former US vice-president Al Gore's famous film on climate change, and certainly the US was battered in 2004 and 2005, leading to wild claims of ever stronger and costlier storms in the future. But in the two years since, the costs have been well below average, virtually disappearing in 2006. That is definitely better than expected.

Gore quoted Massachusetts Institute of Technology hurricane researcher Kerry Emanuel to support an alleged scientific consensus that global warming is making hurricanes much more damaging. But Emanuel has published a new study showing that even in a dramatically warming world, hurricane frequency and intensity may not substantially rise during the next two centuries. That conclusion did not get much exposure in the media.

Of course, not all things are less bad than we thought. But one-sided exaggeration is not the way forward. We urgently need balance if we are to make sensible choices.

Bjorn Lomborg is adjunct professor at Copenhagen Business School.

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Peace.....
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Postby wintler2 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:00 am

Ben D is a pro-polluter spammer and i am saddened that RI's moderators are fine with him using this board as a broadcast medium. But hey, its not like he's the first, i've seen Dreams End, slimmouse, and other strangely similar but less persistant bullshitters come and go.
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Postby Penguin » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:20 pm

Yeah. I agree with wintler here. Using consistenly fraudulent and misleading data promoting laissez-faire big business lies should not pass.
Lomborg especially is a proven liar - and if those sites are really all on same server even thou claiming to be in multiple countries, I call bought propaganda campaign ala Strategic Communications Labs ( http://www.scl.cc/ ). I will check the IPs and traceroute them on those sites and report back.
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Postby Penguin » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:32 pm

"


Patrick Moore: What doesn't exist can hurt you
Sammy Wilson, the Northern Ireland Minister for Environment, is an avowed climate change skeptic who claims that "there is no conclusive evidence that greenhouse gases are a major cause of climate change." While Wilson's claims are at odds with the science, former Greenpeace activist turned corporate consultant Patrick Moore supported Wilson, claiming that there are scientists on the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change who don't believe climate change is man-made, "but their views are ignored." However, as a consultant to the Clean and Safe Energy Coalition, a Nuclear Energy Institute front group, Moore recently argued for new nuclear power stations, because "the greatest threat to the earth" is "our addiction to fossil fuels and the air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions they cause." Another Wilson supporter is Tom Harris, the Executive Director of International Climate Science Coalition (ICSC) and a former executive with the High Park Group (HPG), a Canadian PR firm."

http://www.prwatch.org/node/7740
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Postby monster » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:39 pm

Wintler, I think I'll light my fireplace tonight - add some CO2 to the atmosphere, just for you ;)
"I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."
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Postby wintler2 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:30 pm

Penguin wrote:.. Using consistenly fraudulent and misleading data promoting laissez-faire big business lies should not pass.
Just so, particularly when those posting it make no real attempt to explain, clarify or defend their material. Why post it then? Because they work by repetition.

Penguin wrote:.. I will check the IPs and traceroute them on those sites and report back.
Thanks, but don't stay up late for it - Ben D's silence is as good as admission that he knows his sources are pro-polluter fronts.


monster wrote:Wintler, I think I'll light my fireplace tonight - add some CO2 to the atmosphere, just for you ;)
Do whatever keeps your loneliness manageable, but spare the thread your offtopic jibes.
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Postby monster » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:51 pm

wintler2 wrote:
monster wrote:Wintler, I think I'll light my fireplace tonight - add some CO2 to the atmosphere, just for you ;)
Do whatever keeps your loneliness manageable, but spare the thread your offtopic jibes.


Oops, you just bought yourself some more CO2 - my carbon footprint is going to grow in direct proportion to your misanthropy.
"I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."
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Postby wintler2 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:31 am

monster wrote:Oops, you just bought yourself some more CO2 - my carbon footprint is going to grow in direct proportion to your misanthropy.
Spare the thread your offtopic jibes.
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Postby wintler2 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:46 am

Arctic Sea Ice Decline Shakes Up Ocean Ecosystems
Saturday, November 8, 2008

Uncertain as to how phytoplankton -- microscopic marine plants on which much of ocean life depends -- would respond to Arctic sea ice decline, researchers took advantage of NASA satellite images to show that the microscopic floating plants are teeming in regions of recent ice melt.

The explosion in phytoplankton populations is the result of new open-water habitat and, more significantly, an extended ice-free growing season, biological oceanographer Kevin Arrigo and colleagues from Stanford University in Stanford, Calif., reported last month in the American Geophysical Union's Geophysical Research Letters. ...
http://www.sflorg.com/earthnews/en110808_01.html

More phytoplankton is crudely speaking a good thing i believe, should take more CO2 out of atmosphere.
Nice maps at link, one: "Red represents regions of open water in 2007 that were ice covered in 2006, much of which has never been ice-free for as long as measurements have been available."
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