Michael Hudson: The Parasitic Finance SectorPosted On August 8, 2009 at at 11:37 AM
Fred Harrison interviews Michael Hudson
RenegadeEconomist, London (February 27 2009)
Transcript by Peter Myers (July 30 2009)
See the video - Hudson at his best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwAFohWBL4Fred Harrison: How do we solve the Debt problem today?
Michael Hudson: The only way to do it is to wipe out the debts that can't
be paid. If a mortgage is $500,000 on a $250,000 house, you've got to
write down the mortgage to the market price, and you've got to have the
creditors take a loss for their bad loans.
FH: Is the bailout of the banks going to solve this financial crisis?
MH: No, the bailout of the banks is only paying the creditors, and giving
the creditors the money for the bank loans, without giving a penny of debt
relief to the actual debtors. All it means is that the government is
taking over the creditor position, kicking out the homeowners and throwing
the homes on the market.
FH: But won't the taxpayers get their money back in the end?
MH: If the taxpayers could get their money back, you can be sure that
private enterprise would have come in and bought the mortgages. If you
have the marketplace NOT buying the mortgages, if you have the banks
saying, "These are junk mortgages, and this is toxic waste", how on earth
can taxpayers make money off this toxic waste? Is it really a good
investment for the taxpayers to come in and bail out the banks that say,
"We've made junk mortgages, and this is toxic waste, and we weren't able
to sell it, to find a greater fool". There's no way the taxpayers can make
money out of that. [And even if they COULD make money, is it a good idea
for them to do so by kicking defaulting mortgagees out of their homes?]
FH: Ok, now I know you've been an economist in Wall Street, you teach
economics in universities, all over the world, actually. You're a
consultant to governments around the world, and yet you think there are
lessons to be learned from the Ancient World  that somehow in the
Biblical times the debt cancellation was something that we can learn from
today. In what way?
MH: Well, for 3,000 years, from Sumer to Babylonia to
the Jewish lands with the Jubilee law, they had the same policy. When a
new ruler would take the throne for the second year in Babylonia and
Sumer, he had a three-pronged solution: He would liberate the
debt-bondsmen, he would return the lands to people who'd lost them for
foreclosure, for homes  the basic means of self-support - and he would
annul the personal debts. By wiping the bad debts off the books, he'd
create a clean slate. This was the policy that was taken over in Jewish
law, in Leviticus, by the Jubilee Year.
FH: So you're now saying that there is a way to translate that history
into modern economics, to solve the global financial crisis.
MH: Yes. Antiquity managed to last for 3,000 years, without a financial
bubble, without an economic bubble, and continually restoring order. And
Antiquity realized something that the modern economists don't: they
realized that debts tend to grow in excess of the ability to pay. And when
the debts did that in Antiquity, the ruler would cancel the debts. Now
that was very easy in Antiquity, because most debts were tax debts owed to
the Palace Âand it's easy to cancel debts when the debts are owed to you.
It's harder to cancel debts once you got to Greece and Rome, and the debts
were owed to private creditors; that's where the problem began.
FH: So, now, 2,000 years later, we can't just cancel the debts by rule of
the Government.
MH: Well, you actually can, because the debts are going to be written off
already they estimate they've said there are eight trillion dollars worth
of bad real estate debts. Now if the Government would have just left
market conditions to take their place, when Lehman Brothers went bankrupt
in September, Lehman Brothers mortgages were trading on the market at 22
cents on the dollar. Now at this point, buyers could have come in, bought
the mortgages at 22 cents on the dollar, and then gone to the home-owners
and the real-estate on this, and said, "OK, we're going to re-negotiate
your mortgage at 22 cents, maybe 24 cents on the dollar, or even 25 cents
on the dollar" - that would have given them a profit. They would have
marked down the debts to the ability to pay, or to the market price. And
one way or other the debts are going to have to be written down to the
ability to pay, otherwise they're not going to be paid. If people can't
pay more debt, they won't pay. The question is, "How won't they pay"?
FH: So why aren't Governments doing that, writing off the debts, or
allowing the debts to be cancelled today?
MH: Very good question. The reason is that the largest contributor to the
political campaigns is the Financial Sector, and the Governments have a
choice: they can save the economy, or they can save the creditors who made
the bad loans. They've said, "We don't care about the economy, we're
bailing out the creditors  that's our constituency". And that's what the
Governments are doing today. They're not saving the economy; they're
saving their constituency, the creditors: they're saving London City,
they're saving Wall Street, and they're saving the bourse, and the
economy's left to shrink. And until the Government saves the economy, and
writes down the debts to the ability to pay, there's not going to be a
recovery.
FH: You're saying, then, Governments are acting in bad faith.
MH: They're not acting democratically. What the Governments have done has
been to turn from a Democracy into an Oligarchy. And we're seeing an
Oligarchy, and in fact a Kleptocracy emerge here. And the Governments are
not doing what the people expected them to do  they're not representing
the interests of their constituents.
FH: But President Obama says he's going to effect a change, it's not
business as usual in Washington.
MH: When Obama talks about change, he's not talking about financial
change; he's not talking about economic change. He's talking about
workmen's laws, health reform, racial equality; he's not talking about any
economic change at all, because, in fact, he's re-appointed the Bush
administrators and the Clinton administrators. He's brought back the same
people who brought us the Russian crisis. And if you want to see what
their plans are for the United States, look what Obama's team did when
they had a free hand in Russia in the 1990s. They brought the biggest
inequality and kleptocracy in modern times.
FH: So, Michael, you're in London to address a conference here at the
University of London. What is it that you're going to tell them?
MH: Well, I'm going to tell them that the Finance sector, and the Real
Estate and the Insurance sector are not part of the real economy of
production and consumption. The asset and wealth sector is different from
the production sector. You can think of the financial sector as being
wrapped around the real economy, almost like a parasite, and that's why
it's been called parasitic for so long. The financial sector extracts
interest from the economy, the property sector extracts economic rent, as
do monopolies. Now the key thing about parasites, is that it's not simply
that they extract nourishment from the host. The parasite takes over the
host's brain, to make it think it's part of the economy, to make it think
it's part of the host's own body, and, in fact, that's it almost like a
child of the host, to be protected. And that's what the financial sector
has done today. You have Obama coming out and saying, "We have to save the
banks in order to save the real economy". The fact is, you can't serve
both the parasite and the host. Now the amazing thing is that we have the
economic training tablets from Babylonia, from 2000 BC, and the
mathematical models they had of the economy, in 2000 BC, are more
sophisticated than any of the mathematical models that they use today for
government planning. And the reason is that they calculated how long it
takes for a debt to double. Any interest-rate has a doubling time. They
knew in 2,000 BC that the debts double; they also knew that the economy
grew in an S-curve. They had mathematical models for the growth of herds
in an S-curve, for agricultural production, so they knew that the tendency
was for debts to grow faster than the economy can grow, and that's why,
when every new ruler took the throne, they cancelled the debts.
FH: But, look, we've had Nobel-prize-winning economists telling hedge
funds how to operate. Are you saying they are clueless on mathematics?
MH: Well, that's a very good question. You look at the fact that Long Term
Credit Management went broke using the Nobel-prize-winners. The
mathematical models that won the Nobel Prize have led to 450 trillion
dollars of Derivative contracts that are now junk. So, what they won the
Nobel Prize for, is junk mathematics that have led to junk derivatives and
junk mortgages. That's what's happened.