The Syria Thread 2011 - Present

[Nordic]

The false binary is that because the regimes that claim control of U.S./NATO territories and et cetera are bad, that therefore the regimes that claim control of Russia/Iran/Syria must therefore be good.

Imprisoning, torturing, bombing of civilians is a major wrong, which has been perpetuated on large scale by these states. The far right perpetuates its own false binaries, even as it suits its purposes to decry such binaries when it is practicing entryist trickery towards liberal/left people who might be vulnerable to their ridiculous deceptions...

That particular false binary exists only in your head, as it is pure strawman.

In the real world, people know that the USA is the instigator of almost all of this chaos and bloodshed, and someone like Putin, for all his faults, is the only grownup in the room, trying to do everything he can to avoid a full on hot war with the US.

With that in mind, it's abundantly clear whose side we should be rooting for. The side that uses common sense and recognizes that war is actually a very bad choice.

Your point of view is like condemning Russia as they neared Berlin in 1945 because, gosh, they were kind of mean and gosh they just weren't perfect. THEY WERE DEFEATING HITLER.

you're in this way a purity troll.

[slimmouse]

If you think that it good that "millions" may possibly have come to believe that shapeshifting reptiles really run this planet and that a world jewish conspiracy manages it for them, that Putin and Assad are great heroes who wouldn't hurt a fly and that the reactionary parties of Europe are leading the way to Freedom, well then, there's little more to be said, is there?

I think people have moved on from there. Which might be a very tough notion for people who are simply incapable of moving on to get their head around?

[kool maudit]

If you think that it good that "millions" may possibly have come to believe that shapeshifting reptiles really run this planet and that a world jewish conspiracy manages it for them, that Putin and Assad are great heroes who wouldn't hurt a fly and that the reactionary parties of Europe are leading the way to Freedom, well then, there's little more to be said, is there?

You unbelievable coward. You are now hiding behind this most shopworn of scarecrows, defending your position using only the assumed virtue of... the fact that you are not an anti-semite who is afraid of space crocodiles? That you do not believe Vladimir Putin and Bashar al-Assad are gauze-wrapped Jains eschewing the suffering of this world down to its smallest creatures? While others do? What is this?

Did you support the wars in Iraq and Libya?

[American Dream]

Hmm, not every fan of Putin and Assad here believes in the space opera of shape shifting reptiles but the believe that these state bosses are superheroes is almost as bizarre. And no, that does not mean I support U.S./NATO imperial wars.

The contradictions are highlighted by the professed love of Syrians but the manifest hatred towards the millions of refugees and migrants, muslims and arabs generally. Oh, except the Palestinians because...

[kool maudit]

Hmm, not every fan of Putin and Assad here believes in the space opera of shape shifting reptiles but the believe that these state bosses are superheroes is almost as bizarre. And no, that does not mean I support U.S./NATO imperial wars.

The contradictions are highlighted by the professed love of Syrians but the manifest hatred towards the millions of refugees and migrants, muslims and arabs generally. Oh, except the Palestinians because...

I don't understand what you are saying. You seem to be talking about vague groups of people and implying that they have bad qualities.

Did you support the wars in Iraq and Libya?

If no, how do you view the effort to topple the Assad regime as fundamentally different from these adventures?

If yes, how can you support the ouster of these admittedly gloomy rulers given the suffering and chaos that has followed?

[American Dream]

I see most all these conflicts as disproportionately shaped by power struggles between those with the money and political power to dominate. I'm most concerned about the ordinary people who want liberation and are suffering. This means critical conscousness regarding all the states and all the leaders. That Putin and Assad are great heroes is ludicrous.

I don't love War, ever. To the degree that a war is based on popular initiative based in good principles I might support it nonetheless, if there is a reasonable chance that it will improve ordinary people's lives. I can't think of a good state but Iran, Russia, Syria etc. are shitty states even if one claims they are "fighting the Power". Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

The far right obsession with creeps like Assad and Putin as superheroes is pathetic. All the more horrifying that the reactionaries seem to have zero love the Syrians that try to escape....

[kool maudit]

Of course it is ludicrous to promote Assad as a hero. Putin too. It would have been insane to promote Gaddafi or Hussein as heroes as well. These are brutal men whose brutal regimes cause great suffering, and when we zoom in on that suffering we find all sorts of terrible human stories.

That said, the argument against these wars, at least in my view, is powerfully aided by the fact that the absence of these regimes created vacuums into which warlord and fundamentalist groups raged whose practices were and are still more brutal than the authoritarian regimes they replaced. This additional brutality comes on top of the uncertainty – schools, hospitals, water – that comes with living in the ruins of a destroyed state.

That's the centre of the argument, and concerns over reliably opposing the far right are the distant exurbs. I wonder if you are opposing domestic rightists to a greater degree than you are considering what may judiciously limit the extent of the suffering currently seen in Syria as well as in its two predecessors.

[American Dream]

I'm all for anti-War, anti-Imperialist activity based on good principles but that must include opposition to the Russian State, the Syrian State and others as well as the other more globally dominant states. This includes nuanced approaches to those ordinary people who, at great risk, have chosen to oppose the hegemony of figures such as Putin and Assad, at risk of displacement, bombardment, abduction, torture, assassination and any and all forms of marginalization and repression.

The entryism and opportunism of the far right should be soundly rejected, as they don't actually give much of a shit at all for ordinary people, especially if they are Muslim, Arab and/or migrant. They mostly just want to use the very real human suffering in order to organize for their own bigoted and destructive causes...

Of course it is ludicrous to promote Assad as a hero. Putin too. It would have been insane to promote Gaddafi or Hussein as heroes as well. These are brutal men whose brutal regimes cause great suffering, and when we zoom in on that suffering we find all sorts of terrible human stories.

That said, the argument against these wars, at least in my view, is powerfully aided by the fact that the absence of these regimes created vacuums into which warlord and fundamentalist groups raged whose practices were and are still more brutal than the authoritarian regimes they replaced. This additional brutality comes on top of the uncertainty – schools, hospitals, water – that comes with living in the ruins of a destroyed state.

That's the centre of the argument, and concerns over reliably opposing the far right are the distant exurbs. I wonder if you are opposing domestic rightists to a greater degree than you are considering what may judiciously limit the extent of the suffering currently seen in Syria as well as in its two predecessors.

[kool maudit]

What are we talking about? The far right or Syria?

The question here is why you support the US/Nato effort to topple that country's government. I find your recent posts unclear.

[Rory]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37432797

US Secretary of State John Kerry urges no-fly zone in key areas of Syria to save truce, after attack on aid convoy

http://atimes.com/2016/09/un-halts-aid- ... -not-dead/

U.N. humanitarian spokesman Jens Laerke said the references to air strikes in the original statement, attributed to the top U.N. humanitarian officials in the region and in Syria, were probably the result of a drafting error.

“We are not in a position to determine whether these were in fact air strikes. We are in a position to say that the convoy was attacked,” he said.

Ho hum. This will all pan out smoothly

[American Dream]

The question here is why you support the US/Nato effort to topple that country's government. I find your recent posts unclear.

You promote the false binary, too.

I'm more of the "a pox on all their houses of power" school, with a cautious support for grassroots people who have good principles.

Why do you consistently try to steer the conversation away from the far right, when it is the underlying political principles- and agenda- that matter so greatly?

[Rory]

https://www.rt.com/news/360146-lavrov-u ... id-convoy/

"There was another unacceptable provocation on September 19 - the shelling of a humanitarian convoy near Aleppo,”

“I am confident that such coincidences require serious analysis and an investigation.”

"Attempts by some participants [of the talks] to put forward certain preconditions or ultimatums, to sabotage the UN Resolution 22/54, are unacceptable," Lavrov said.

"We should not give in to this blackmail. The talks must be resumed immediately,"

It is striking how the US was caught deliberately bombing Syrian Army positions, effectively providing air support for ISIS/IS/Daesh/Al Nursa/Al Jubar al Haq/The Peoples Front of Syria/The Syrian Liberation Front/Popular Peoples Syrian Moderate Rebels/etc.. And then, with ever so fortuitous timing, an aid convoy is destroyed, with alleged evidence of Russian malfeasance. The western media goes crazy, accusing Russia of war crimes, calls for no fly zone, demands that Assad and Russia stop breaching the ceasefire (that the "moderate rebels" refused to participate in at all).

Of course, as with the allegations of chemical weapons attack years back, closer analysis seems to point at US/Salafist Monarchy proxies being the actual culprits.

Who would benefit from such misdirection, false flaggery, and general foul play?

[tapitsbo]

If there's no such thing as an independent, unaffiliated, grassroots in the peaceful country where I live I doubt there would be during a war (naturally all political networks have a contextual orientation towards,and suffer penetration from, macro, top-down entities)

Occupy and the Arab Spring are literal examples of the grassroots trope running cover for exploitation and destruction of existing political momentum.

AD's hypothetical autonomous grassroots is right out of the Gene Sharp playbook

The groups championed in his articles are at best going to be about as grassroots as CIA cutout drug traffickers - of course he is an avid follower of this topic too but silent concerning allegations against what I am forced to assume are parties he is sympathetic to.

In Canada where I live police have shot protestors. Where's our colour revolution so we get to enjoy the delights of living in a failed state?

AD literally talks like one faction of the "bosses" that control discourse, or attempt to, through regime NGOs and other institutions where I live. His takes are in fact quite contemptuous of ordinary people. His slanders of the people he disagrees with in recent posts are quite inaccurate.

[coffin_dodger]

I'm more of the "a pox on all their houses of power" school

What's your thoughts on the recent - (in historical terms) - establishment and ongoing expansion of Israel in Arab lands, (traditional emnity guaranteed) and the use of the Evil British Empire to forcibly bring about this establishment, the basis of which was (and still is) grounded on religious texts from thousands of years ago that proclaim this to be a divine right?

[Sounder]

tapitsbo wrote...

Occupy and the Arab Spring are literal examples of the grassroots trope running cover for exploitation and destruction of existing political momentum.

People that are vulnerable to the siren song of self-righteousness should print and tape this to their refrigerator and read it every morning.