Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:53 pm

Oh trust that I understand that people don't want to actually change this. A fellow-traveler and I just fought with about a dozen of our closest neoliberal friends about this for about an hour this morning. Great fun.

You and I both see the changes on the horizon. Some people who also have the foresight but who might lack some imagination are preparing in one way. Other people are preparing in another way - to have an alternative built around the ideas I listed above (consensus building, empathy, collectivism, seizing the means of production and automating them for the benefit of all [even the former bosses]) - and are actually organizing long-term plans for it.

I disagree on some future predictions (my bets are on serious climate catastrophe coming quicker than we expect) but even though we're not psychics and imagine different futures, we're all building the path based on what would be the most peaceful and kind.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:04 pm

There's always all those empty camps.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby dada » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:10 pm

coffin_dodger » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:43 pm wrote:
The system you are immersed in is powered by domination, heirarchy, money, the constant promotion of self-gratification and a dog eat dog mentality. The majority of people, whilst uncomfortable with the means required to sustain this status quo, balk at actually changing it. Changing means less.



The system is domination, hierarchy. It's powered by money, and fear. Mostly money.

Which majority of people are we talking about? A majority of the people on the planet? A majority of the people in the system? A majority of the people with bank accounts?
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:14 pm

OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:04 pm wrote:There's always all those empty camps.


You into space gulags?
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:26 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:Oh trust that I understand that people don't want to actually change this. A fellow-traveler and I just fought with about a dozen of our closest neoliberal friends about this for about an hour this morning. Great fun.

You and I both see the changes on the horizon. Some people who also have the foresight but who might lack some imagination are preparing in one way. Other people are preparing in another way - to have an alternative built around the ideas I listed above (consensus building, empathy, collectivism, seizing the means of production and automating them for the benefit of all [even the former bosses]) - and are actually organizing long-term plans for it.

I disagree on some future predictions (my bets are on serious climate catastrophe coming quicker than we expect) but even though we're not psychics and imagine different futures, we're all building the path based on what would be the most peaceful and kind.


Incidentally, I really respect you, Luther. Your ideals are very similar to my own - the only difference between us is method - or lack of it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I unashamedly generalise here):

The far left considers the far right to be uncouth, unintelligent, prone to violence, gun-happy, racist, selfish and bullying.

The far right considers far leftists to be allied to the 'abnormal', collectivist, bossy, bleeding heart, sappy eggheads who want to take their toys away - from their cold, dead hands.

The vast majority of people cross over these two categories. This has to be true, when taking into account the nature of the United States itself and the projection it imposes - an aggressive imperial power that considers itself 'the best of the best'.

The far-right and far-left cannot gain serious traction in this environment, because both sides offend 99% of the people with one or more of their particular forms of stance.

Left and Right is a forced binary option that cannot be concluded in the US to anybody's satisfaction. Leftists wanting to crush rightists is the binary opposite of rightists wanting to crush leftists. Two sides of the same coin. But...it is a human construct; ergo it can be broken.

Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump are least worse candidates. That is what the system is reduced to regurgitating. It's unable to even mask that much, now.

We need a moment of wonderment as a species. This is a priority.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:37 pm

Luther Blissett » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:14 pm wrote:
OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:04 pm wrote:There's always all those empty camps.


You into space gulags?

Plenty of room to spare.

My views are contradictorily uncomfortable in either the right or leftist boxes. I'm usually in leaning toward advocating collectivism and education over coercion or subversion. But If I get in one of those moods where I'm actually thinking about it and the priority of stamping out the massive die off in our future I am forced to realize that only a global totalitarian regime would have any chance of organization on the necessary scale to save us from the already irreversible effects of our lifestyles on the ecosystem. No democratic republic or collectivist arrangements could organize the migration and resettlement of two billion people. Which is what we're looking at. Probably much sooner than we're led to believe. Its not that the major world powers are evil, they're also just not good enough at being evil to handle the workload.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby dada » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:03 pm

coffin_dodger » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:26 pm wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:
Incidentally, I really respect you, Luther. Your ideals are very similar to my own - the only difference between us is method - or lack of it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I unashamedly generalise here):

The far left considers the far right to be uncouth, unintelligent, prone to violence, gun-happy, racist, selfish and bullying.

The far right considers far leftists to be allied to the 'abnormal', collectivist, bossy, bleeding heart, sappy eggheads who want to take their toys away - from their cold, dead hands.

The vast majority of people cross over these two categories. This has to be true, when taking into account the nature of the United States itself and the projection it imposes - an aggressive imperial power that considers itself 'the best of the best'.

The far-right and far-left cannot gain serious traction in this environment, because both sides offend 99% of the people with one or more of their particular forms of stance.

Left and Right is a forced binary option that cannot be concluded in the US to anybody's satisfaction. Leftists wanting to crush rightists is the binary opposite of rightists wanting to crush leftists. Two sides of the same coin. But...it is a human construct; ergo it can be broken.

Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump are least worse candidates. That is what the system is reduced to regurgitating. It's unable to even mask that much, now.

We need a moment of wonderment as a species. This is a priority.


I really respect Luther, too. So we seem to have a common ground of ideals here.

I would say constructing the appearance of a 'binary between the far right and far left' is a tactic of the far right. The 'far right' is white supremacist, devoted to maintaining the power structure. The 'far left' represents everything they are against. The far left is multi-cultural, inclusive. Some of us are even prone to violence and gun-happy.

The far right is in the process of losing power. They're frustrated. The far left is in the process of growing. In an attempt to remain relevant, the far right attacks the far left.

I'm generalizing as well, but I hope that this clarifies things a bit, adds to your perspective.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Sounder » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:08 pm

Thanks Mac, that's worth a re-post. Liberals have become adept haters during this round of the circus.


August 19, 2016
Liberal Hate for the Green Party

by Margaret Kimberley

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/19/ ... een-party/

Liberals have joined Hillary Clinton’s “big nasty tent” in a very big way. They have moved far beyond the usual rationales for sticking with the Democrats and are now carrying on a full-fledged hate fest. Their targets are Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein and her running mate Ajamu Baraka, who is also a Black Agenda Report editor and columnist.

The screeds have become more and more extreme and defy the run of the mill rationales that progressives use to justify remaining within Democratic Party lines. Holding one’s nose and voting for the “lesser evil” democrat is passé. So is fear of Republican judicial appointments. Concern for abortion rights doesn’t cut it anymore. (sure it does, in some places)

Liberals are no longer going through the motions of criticizing the Democrat. Instead they openly show love for Hillary Clinton and disdainfully pile on Stein and Baraka with fury. The blog Wonkette called Jill Stein “cunty” and “a mendacious nihilist piece of shit.” The site Very Smart Brothas declared that a vote for Stein was akin to putting it in the trash. They also threw in a dig at Cornel West because he dared to criticize Barack Obama. The Huffington Post chose to deride Green Party convention delegates because they ate at McDonald’s. Gawker tried to link Ajamu Baraka to holocaust denial. His unassailable human rights credentials didn’t mean much when the media decided to go into attack mode.

The list is long and will get longer between now and Election Day. The degree of antipathy is actually quite useful. It tells us why the Green Party is so important and why liberals are such a dangerous enemy.

They are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They spend years wringing their hands because Republicans control state legislatures but when the recently released DNC emails show that the party starves local races of money they say nothing. When they spoke up at all they made a big deal about a spurious Russian hacker connection to Donald Trump.

There is no longer any pretense of claiming a desire for systemic change or even calling themselves progressives. They are “with her” — as the slogan goes — and her illegal activities and record of mass killing don’t dissuade them from supporting her.


Liberals don’t want the Democrats to change. They cling to a bizarre hope for reform, nibbling around the edges while keeping the criminals in charge. They prefer to look down their noses at Trump supporters or consider themselves the cool kids in the high school clique. When they have an opportunity to make history and begin the process of dismantling the hold of the Democratic Party they instead become quite vicious on their behalf.

Donald Trump is the perfect foil for their con game. His open appeals to racism and unpredictable statements and behavior give them an excuse to do nothing except make excuses for the very crooked Mrs. Clinton.

They don’t even feign concern when Republicans who contributed to Chris Christie and John Kasich start doling out dollars to Hillary. They long ago gave up on fighting for peace and just as the name Trump is a one-word attack ad, questions about foreign policy turn into harangues directed against Vladimir Putin.

Liberals have sided with the ruling classes and resist anyone pointing out the truth. While they falsely accuse Jill Stein of being anti-vaccine, even after she clearly stated she was pro-vaccine, American police departments keep up their body count. The United States risks war with China and Russia and unemployment is still high. But they say nothing about any of those issues. They cheerlead for Hillary Clinton just as they did for Barack Obama and will say nothing against her once she is in office.

The election of 2016 will be a notable one in history but for all the wrong reasons. Millions of people voted for the not-so-left wing Bernie Sanders who wasn’t serious about denying Clinton the nomination. Yet it must be said that they wanted change within the Democrat Party. He left his followers high and dry and made the case for the people who feared and scorned his half-hearted campaign.

While Democrats were confused about what made a candidate a progressive, the Republicans were following a new leader. Donald Trump was a political novice who used free media attention and blatant appeals to white nationalism to win the nomination. But Trump makes statements which don’t sit well with the Republican establishment. He went on record saying that the trade deals beloved by the duopoly are harming American workers. He asked reasonable questions about United States/Russian relations. He was then used to invent numerous lies about the Russian president, who was already demonized by the media and the ruling classes.

Liberals are now quite deranged and applaud a woman who will crush their feeble agenda
as soon as she says the oath of office. Progressives and big money Republicans are now on the same page and that is why Stein and Baraka face so much scrutiny and so many big lies.

The Green Party’s existence is proof that the Democratic Party emperor has no clothes. The logical progression of success for the Greens is the end of the party which claims to be more inclusive and the champion of working people and human rights. It does none of those things while the party which actually articulates these policies has been designated an enemy.

In this case the enemies of the enemy are most definitely our friends.


Margaret Kimberley writes the Freedom Rider column for Black Agenda Report, where this essay originally appeared.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/19/ ... een-party/
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:12 pm

OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:37 pm wrote:Its not that the major world powers are evil, they're also just not good enough at being evil to handle the workload.


Have come to similar conclusions. Foreign policy, as an artform, is morally reprehensible but strategically imperative. That contradiction won't get resolved any time soon.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:15 pm

Shocking, but not surprising that Jill Stein is polling around 2%, when that idiot Gary Johnson is at 9%. The fact Jill Stein is polling so low among Bernie Sanders supporters and millennials
to me shows how Hillary and the media were successful in their collusion.

Disgusting to see across social media, twitter, etc so called liberals attack and put down liberals who support Jill Stein. A real progressive, unlike the war criminal queen.

Jill Stein, seriously dangerous. As proven by this image

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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:22 pm

Well in short that's mostly right but it might be worth it to look at what the far left and far right believe about themselves as their own positive attributes rather than about one another.

It's my own cognitive bias of course that the vast majority of people would prefer the far left "revolution" over the far right's version if institutional power visibly, overtly pushed just a little too far; or if the climate crisis got just a little bit worse (at "home" I guess); or if everyone involved in trucking, shipping, and transportation was replaced with a robot; or a new nazi regime rose to power; or any number of other widespread shifts lurched.

When I think about things like inverted totalitarianism I get this sort of montage of views in my imagination that looks a bit like the humans in Wall-E interspersed with Koyaanisqatsi / Samsara / Manufactured Landscapes-like montage of soft oppression of the American / "Western" variety of being given creature comforts while our bodies, water, air, and soil are being poisoned, police brutality worsens, the rich increasingly hoard more wealth and resources, surveillance expands, and everyone is pitted against one another.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby dada » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:08 pm

Sounder » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:08 pm wrote:Thanks Mac, that's worth a re-post. Liberals have become adept haters during this round of the circus.

August 19, 2016
Liberal Hate for the Green Party

by Margaret Kimberley

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/19/ ... een-party/


Oh come on. Liberals always do that. Every four years they kick the left out of the tent. That's their job. Suckups to institutional power.

---

That sure is a cute kitty. Team Stein should run a kitty campaign. I'm serious. She might get the 5% that way.

Or if they insist on attacking Clinton, do it without comparing her to Trump. You can't do this 'Clinton is worse than Trump' thing in this political climate. Just say Clinton is bad, and leave it at that. Why bring Trump into it.

I swear, it seems like the Greens shot themselves in the foot purposefully with that Nuclear Russia thing. Although my conspiratorial mind naturally suspects the Greens are compromised. It's tough for me to accept that professional strategists can be that inept at running a political campaign.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Iamwhomiam » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:39 pm

coffin_dodger » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:43 pm wrote:
What other ideals are we talking about?


The system you are immersed in is powered by domination, heirarchy, money, the constant promotion of self-gratification and a dog eat dog mentality. The majority of people, whilst uncomfortable with the means required to sustain this status quo, balk at actually changing it. Changing means less.

The Left needs to devise a plan for super-abundancy for all.


Perhaps you'll disagree, but we are living in the most peaceful times known from history. though wars rage on. According to history, every prior social system devised has been "powered by domination, heirarchy, money, the constant promotion of self-gratification and a dog eat dog mentality."

You will never see anything resembling what we today call the "Left" "devise a plan for super-abundancy." WTF? That is exactly the system we now have in place that is the cause of conflict and our changing climate. Whatsamattawidyou?

The Left and all sane people would be happy to have clean water to drink and bathe,food enough to meet their nutritional needs, shelter from the weather, education for their children and an occupation - note I did not say Job.

Wanting more would be Right of where Left ends.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Harvey » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:30 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:12 pm wrote:
OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:37 pm wrote:Its not that the major world powers are evil, they're also just not good enough at being evil to handle the workload.


Have come to similar conclusions. Foreign policy, as an artform, is morally reprehensible but strategically imperative. That contradiction won't get resolved any time soon.


Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Please forgive me for rambling...

More brute force than art for much of the last century or so. “Gunboat diplomacy” wasn't metaphorical.

The needs of big oil/coal/gas and MIC have between them determined foreign policy for more than a century so we might well ask how our needs and desires were shaped or encouraged to enable them. How much of what they do is necessary or through authentic popular demand? This is built into the nature of the discourse.

How much of the overriding obsession with security has been a genuine popular concern and how much an invention? How much is entrenched cultural chauvinism? How much is merely an the inevitable expression of economic necessity.* The apparent bizarreness of the security response to perceived threats, which more often than not were wholly misdirected if not invented, seems to indicate a wholly autonomous and out of control mechanism, distorting whatever foreign policy might have been should they (MIC etc) not exist.

Thinking along those lines might even point toward potential solutions. What would the world look like, not only if advanced weapons didn't exist, but if there wasn't a vast infrastructure and workforce dependent on the their continual production and use? How do we get there? What if instead of every war plane or tank, a solar powered desalination plant was built with the same resources. There'd be no water shortage anywhere for a start. What if the cost of resource wars over the last several decades had been spent mining asteroids or eliminating wasteful squandering of resources?

Many of the 'lifestyle' dreams we've been absorbing all our lives from the arts, particularly Hollywood and advertising but also literature, painting, photography and architecture once achieved turn out to be alienating and unsatisfying. The celebration of the car and the gun in American culture exemplify the veneration of objects necessary to those values which will eventually tolerate and then justify all the horror and the inequality. I've heard many people in the states commute to work via planes, sometimes more than one each way. Remember when the internet began to make all things seem possible rather than impossible? That moment where even employers were talking about how much work could be achieved remotely or how life could become less stressful and more family oriented? Much of that seems to be in stasis or gone entirely. Why?

Part of an answer might be found studying the design philosophy of Apple. Whenever I've been in those big apple stores, (out of curiosity, I've never owned an apple product) I notice people seem to adopt whispered tones of reverence in response to the almost priestly administrations of the store clerks, like some kind of bizarre confessional. It's possible to argue that the Mac, iPod, iPhone etc were less concerned with simplicity in minimising the interface than they were in limiting their use outside commercially driven barriers, ineluctably shaping the customer toward the product with each new iteration. The look and shape of the iPhone appears in retrospect to be a (un)conscious yearning for Kubrick's Monolith, the iPhone as agent of evolution. All of which is exemplified by Apples business ethics, hierarchic, restrictive, dogmatic, unprincipled and inscrutable. That little of this applies exclusively to Apple is part of my point. It's in the culture.

Bee Movie, which might have been scripted by the security state is ostensibly a discussion of individual liberty within the group using hive as metaphor for conformity. Community values are set against individual freedom, freedom which almost destroys the world as Bees go on strike and plants wither. With strange irony we began to face this threat within a few years of the film as agri-chem pesticides decimated bee populations with corporate effectiveness.

At heart a deeply conformist picture, Bee Movie argues the danger and essential frivolity of independent thought, though importantly not personal expression. Aimed at children, its most glaring aspect, obvious from outside is the fetishisation of authoritarian apparel, these bees have militarised technology and enforcement. Lantern jawed with the physique of Football players, they sport riot helmets, grimly jovial as they germinate plants not through evolved adaptation but with pollinating guns and other hardware reminiscent of a SWAT team. All this encouraging children to view these adornments as helpful accessories to life, while pollination is something best left to machines. What the fuck is that about?


In the last decade and a half there were innumerable potential technologies on the horizon which might have been designed to serve us. From the beginning we might have dreamed of machines which could liberate us. Instead those who did dreamed of machines which further enslaved us at so many levels, often through the very freedom they appeared to promise us. In every aspect of modern life from work to leisure, there is a machine we don't need.

Isn't foreign policy as we currently have it a machine which outlived it's moment of necessity?

*Economics (Adam Smith) arrived several decades before ecology (Darwin) but might learn a thing or two from it. Instead it drew all the wrong lessons through poorly understood evolutionary theories. In his theory of evolution Darwin stresses competition far less than co-operation.
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Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:40 pm

test
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