Vaccine - Autism link

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Sounder » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:35 pm

It's not easy being a both/and person in an either/or world.

Anyway, it's an easy bet that if an industry is shielded from liability, they will make hay while the getting is good.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:37 pm

The vaccine industry is the only business in America where the manufacturers carry ZERO RISK if their product causes damages. They do not test vaccines for safety or efficacy because they don't have to. In the 1980s the insurance companies flat-out refused to insure vaccine manufacturers against damages because the risk was deemed too high (ie, vaccines are unavoidable unsafe).

So our friend the government stepped in and indemnified the manufacturers (the National Vaccine Safety Act). Guess what happened? A gold rush—I mean, here's a product that carries zero risk or liability, which the government itself will buy from you (the CDC itself buys 4 billion dollars worth of vaccines every year) to distribute. Why would you not make and sell as many as you can? A few years later in 1989 the vaccine schedule increased dramatically, along with the rates of autism, childhood allergies, asthma, and the whole cavalcade of childhood illnesses which we think of today as 'normal'—and it has only increased since. There's no universe in which this practice could be deemed anything other than criminal.

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Elvis » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:54 pm

Agent Orange Cooper wrote:The vaccine industry is the only business in America where the manufacturers carry ZERO RISK if their product causes damages. They do not test vaccines for safety or efficacy because they don't have to. In the 1980s the insurance companies flat-out refused to insure vaccine manufacturers against damages because the risk was deemed too high (ie, vaccines are unavoidable unsafe).

So our friend the government stepped in and indemnified the manufacturers (the National Vaccine Safety Act). Guess what happened? A gold rush—I mean, here's a product that carries zero risk or liability, which the government itself will buy from you (the CDC itself buys 4 billion dollars worth of vaccines every year) to distribute. Why would you not make and sell as many as you can?


This seems an important aspect of this controversy. Whatever the case may be, I don't like to see suffering as a wellspring of profits, a "market" to be exploited for money. I don't trust the exploiters.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:48 pm

Elvis » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:54 pm wrote:This seems an important aspect of this controversy. Whatever the case may be, I don't like to see suffering as a wellspring of profits, a "market" to be exploited for money. I don't trust the exploiters.


The vaccine companies would have left the market without those protections. Not defending them (I don't support the protection) but pointing out it's more ambiguous than just big pharma corruption/protection racket etc.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Elvis » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:46 pm

liminalOyster » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:48 pm wrote:
Elvis » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:54 pm wrote:This seems an important aspect of this controversy. Whatever the case may be, I don't like to see suffering as a wellspring of profits, a "market" to be exploited for money. I don't trust the exploiters.


The vaccine companies would have left the market without those protections. Not defending them (I don't support the protection) but pointing out it's more ambiguous than just big pharma corruption/protection racket etc.


Yes, and maybe for-profit "vaccine companies" ought to go away.

It's the MBA philosophy, taught on the first day lest you ever forget it:

"What is the purpose of a vaccine company?"

"To make vaccines and save lives!"

"Wrong. The purpose of a vaccine company is to make money."



(P.S. My mother nearly died several times this month because Medicare won't pay for the expensive device that would prevent those emergencies. I'm off again to her city for more caretaking; she can't live alone any more and I'm afraid the "sickness" industry is making her sicker.)
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby conniption » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:29 am

Our thoughts are with you, Elvis.

Never have been one to vaccinate our children or our animals. For-profit-medicine is an abomination, imo.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:31 am

Elvis, my point is that, at this time, the (developing) world (n particular) needs vaccines urgently and that there could have been a catastrophic shortage if big pharma left the industry. I oppose all fusion of primary health care and profit. Like prisons, law enforcement and the MIC, I'm still forced to deal with it, for now.

Love to you and your mom. I'm so sorry for the insane extra burden the healthcare finance regime puts on you and others already dealing with sickness, family and mortality. Safe travels.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Cordelia » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am

Blue » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:16 pm wrote: ..... Almost all of the recent outbreaks of measles in the US occurred within an almost 100% vaccinated population.

How do you explain that? Either the vaccine does not work or the people vaccinated contracted it from the shot.

Blaming unvaccinated people who DID NOT HAVE THE MEASLES is one of those "Big Lies" I would say.


^^^Bears repeating.

Sounder » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:35 pm wrote:It's not easy being a both/and person in an either/or world.

Anyway, it's an easy bet that if an industry is shielded from liability, they will make hay while the getting is good.


Reminds me that for the U.S. market, vaccine makers had better, since,


(Article isn't about vaccines)
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:43 am

Americans are having fewer kids.


Kids in the US are not a growth industry for vaccine makers. They make money by the new implementation of immunization programs in other parts of the world, as well as by flu/pneumonia for the much broader world population.

Cordelia » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:28 am wrote:
Blue » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:16 pm wrote: ..... Almost all of the recent outbreaks of measles in the US occurred within an almost 100% vaccinated population.

How do you explain that? Either the vaccine does not work or the people vaccinated contracted it from the shot.

Blaming unvaccinated people who DID NOT HAVE THE MEASLES is one of those "Big Lies" I would say.


^^^Bears repeating.


But it is not true. Immigration patterns from places where measles is contagious have dramatically changed since Mercola's 1994 data. Some of these are the same areas where big pharma is making money due to new immunization initiatives. Not to mention that "almost 100%" is kind of the heart of the matter - you will never get more than 95% vaccinated due to other health conditions. If you get much less than that, the overall group effectiveness is diminished. Part of the reason the whole thing has become so prominent is because the critical mass of those who choose not to vaccinate is just about big enough to cause serious problems (at least in my fantasy world where vaccines are something other than a "neurotoxic" mechanism of social control).

The majority of recent outbreaks in the US have been in sub-populations of people who are not vaccinated - the Amish and certain immigrant communities. . And there is fuck all that is racist, anti-immigrant or feeding into stereotypes about pointing that out. Its just an epidemiological reality that it is very common for communities with strong religious doctrine (Amish, Somali-American Imams) to question or reject vaccination. In the 2014 outbreak, it was easily traced back to the Philippines for example. Personally I've known two Christian Scientists who went and got their vaccinations only as teenagers because their parents had rejected them. For that matter tuberculosis (and resistance) is on the rise in some major cities specifically because of proximity and people immigrating from areas where it is common such as areas in Latin America, areas in India, parts of Africa, etc.

Communities are not homogenous and even a "highly vaccinated" one has those who by choice, necessity or geographic origin are not vaccinated. Measles spreads very easily and effectively because it lives outside the body airborne for a long time. So even if heavy handed (asshole) vaccine defenders are wrong to focus so much "blame" on communities of US kids whose parents choose not to vaccinate them, its not particularly a reach to say an unvaccinated kid could easily acquire measles at a big public gathering with lots of international visitors or immigrants from countries where its common. Nor is it a reach to say that kids who are unable to vaccinate due to chronic illness can then get sick from them.

edit: I should add this - I am passionately, passionately opposed to mandatory vaccination. There is no circumstance ever in which I think any state could or should ever have the right to put a needle in any human body. So I am not a typical "anti-anti-vaxxer" sort. I respect anyone who is seriously vested in research and science and choose not to vaccinate. But I loathe false claims or vague insinuation of their danger.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Cordelia » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:49 pm

^^^Fair enough liminalOyster; thanks for the feedback. But I remember late last year there was also a major outbreak of Mumps in the U.S. vaccinated population.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:12 pm

Blue » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:16 pm wrote:DrEvil, please don't call me or anyone else an anti-vaxxer who calls into question the huge exponential growth in vaccinations (for profit not health) that are mandatory for kids in the US. Almost all of the recent outbreaks of measles in the US occurred within an almost 100% vaccinated population.

How do you explain that? Either the vaccine does not work or the people vaccinated contracted it from the shot.


Sorry, I'll try to use more neutral language in the future (unless the description fits, like with aoc).

As for the outbreaks, the vaccines aren't 100% effective (93% after the first MMR dose and 97% after the second one according to the CDC), it just makes it a lot harder for the disease to get a foothold. The point of vaccinating as many as possible is to make it harder for the disease to spread. If you get the vaccination rate above a certain threshold (around 92%) it stops the spread completely (herd immunity). If it drops below that threshold you start seeing outbreaks.

Blaming unvaccinated people who DID NOT HAVE THE MEASLES is one of those "Big Lies" I would say.

When you bring up the Somali/Minnesota thing you are really feeding into, I hate to say this I like you, Corporate American Lies. How sick is it to say that the children of some singled out parents in the US got the measles because they were African immigrants dumb, worried about autism and didn't know vaccinations are good?


Please don't insinuate I'm a racist because I point out that a community that happened to be of African origin had low vaccination rates. They used to have some of the highest vaccination rates in the state until the anti-vaxxers started spreading their lies. Then vaccination rates plummeted and the outbreak happened.

The kids got the fucking measles, not AIDS!!!


Yes, which has a much higher chance of killing you or giving you deafness, pneumonia or permanent brain damage than the vaccine itself. Personally I prefer kids with no diseases at all.

I'm going to link to Dr. Mercola now, who is a real doctor and always has footnotes/links to scientific studies in his articles. I admit it is a couple years old because I don't have much time right now to find a newer link. Excellent information on the history of measles in the US.

Summary of article:

CDC reports that no one in the US has died of measles in the last 12 years. Meanwhile, 98 measles vaccine related deaths were reported to the US government since 2003.
During that time period, 694 measles vaccine-related disabilities were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Reporting System (VAERS).
Child mortality due to measles is 200 to 400 times greater in malnourished children in less developed countries than those in developed ones; as nutrition improves, complications and deaths radically diminish.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/arti ... ccine.aspx


The VAERS database isn't an accurate source of data. Anyone can report anything for any reason as long as it happened after a vaccine. There should be at least one report in there of a guy who claims he turned into the Hulk after getting his flu shot. It's more of an early warning system; if a lot of people suddenly start reporting similar responses to a vaccine then it's something that should be looked at.

The reason no one has died from measles in the US for ages is exactly because everyone is vaccinated against it. Outbreaks are rare because of the vaccine, and healthcare and nutrition is good enough that anyone infected most likely survives.

This claim: 98 measles vaccine related deaths were reported to the US government since 2003
is also dubious. It's based on data from the VAERS database, which is not an accurate source for data like this, and isn't meant to be.

This is what the VAERS site itself says:
When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.


Oh, and the Mercola article isn't written by Mercola, it's an abstract from Suzanne Humphries' book Dissolving Illusions. She's a quack. Here's a decent overview of the kind of misleading stuff she peddles (the fact that she uses Andrew Wakefield as a source should be a huge red flag in itself):
https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/why- ... 446d0a7e0f

I would be more inclined to listen to the skeptics if they weren't so consistently spreading lies and misinformation.

On the bright side, at least they're not selling homeopathic mp3 files that "cure" ebola.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:41 pm

In fairness, Humphries does not use Wakefield as a source and is not a homeopath. I saw that Medium takedown too but based on Humphries' response, it appears to be pretty wilfully obfuscatory, which never helps matter. http://drsuzanne.net/2015/10/why-dr-suz ... t-measles/
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:07 pm

There's nothing wrong with using Wakefield as a source anyway. But of course, anyone who doesn't adhere to the pharmaceutical dogma is a quack according to DrEvil.

Decide for yourself, dear lurker:



And while we're at it:

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:52 pm

^^Ffs. He lost his medical license for conducting unethical experiments on children, falsifying experimental data and trying to profit from it. He's the last person you want to listen to when it comes to vaccines. He's a fraud.

I get that you're not going to believe any of that because he's just a poor anti-vaxxer being targeted by the big, bad establishment, but it's the truth. There's been several studies looking into his claims after he made them, and they all came to the same conclusion: he's wrong.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:37 pm

liminalOyster » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:41 am wrote:In fairness, Humphries does not use Wakefield as a source and is not a homeopath. I saw that Medium takedown too but based on Humphries' response, it appears to be pretty wilfully obfuscatory, which never helps matter. http://drsuzanne.net/2015/10/why-dr-suz ... t-measles/


Fair enough, she is far from the worst of the lot (I wasn't joking about those homeopathic mp3's), but still not someone I would trust.

Even though she isn't a fully licensed homeopath she has studied it for years and has been a prominent advocate, so her denial of such is another sign that she isn't entirely honest.
see here for an example: http://archive.li/sYVV3

She also has some strange ideas about vitamin C, and her claims about vaccines causing kidney failure seem to be based on her subjective experience and not any kind of rigorous research.
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