'Liberals'/'Leftists' in America

[Marionumber1]

This is a proxy war of a corrupt US oligarchy against a corrupt Russian oligarchy. The only people benefiting from this war are the war mongering oligarchs on both sides who fomented this conflict. The average Ukrainian is surely not benefitting from this war. Nor is the average US or European citizen. War is a racket among gangster classes. Any stance against negotiating a peaceful settlement ASAP is based solely on sort of bizarre rooting interest for one corrupt side over the other. What the fuck is wrong with people's brains?

Precisely this, very well-said.

@DrEvil: I am kind of stunned to see you outright endorse the current foreign aid policy of the US (and other Western powers, but predominantly the US), as if the military-industrial complex has somehow turned into a force for good. You present the situation as though we just have a totally sovereign nation choosing to accept help from NATO members/affiliates in order to defend itself. In reality, the "help" is a means of propping up Ukraine as a puppet in a global conflict with Russia. And this is nothing new: for years the US has been backing (largely neo-Nazi) militias to skirmish near the Russian border and harass Ukrainians in favor of friendlier relations with Russia, with a key financial supporter of these militias bankrolling Ukraine's current president who now oversees this conflict. The current "aid" to Ukraine is not supporting the Ukrainian people; it's supporting the US's use of them as human shields to further weaken Russia.

You talk about an "existential crisis" that Ukrainians are feeling as a result Russia's invasion, and contrast it with the impact of the US's own coup in 2014. That just comes across as you downplaying how horrifying it must be to have influential contingents of neo-Nazis (plus, more recently, Zelenskyy's secret police) violently suppressing dissent, as well as knowing that you're being used as pawns by a superpower that really doesn't give a fuck about you.

[stickdog99]

Right. How is this fundamentally different than the proxy war the US fomented against the Russians using Afghani "moderate rebels"?

Russia is not as capable of mounting proxy wars as the USA is and so has to prosecute/defend its interests with more conventional warfare. I am not supporting Russian aggression. I am totally anti-aggressive warfare. But come on with this idealized vision of Ukraine as a totally sovereign country in 100% unified, democratic, local control of its pre-war territories that were unconscionably breached by incomparably evil Russian forces. Ukraine is fundamentally a sacrificial pawn that is currently being destroyed in a larger energy-driven economic war between Western and Russian oligarchs. Only a parapolitical infant could imagine otherwise.

[Joe Hillshoist]

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Never hinted it was an 'excuse'..

And where is your indignation at the myriad U.S. invasions and coups over the years?

Empires will empire. To scoff at one and not the other is dishonest to yourself. Saying 'war is bad' is hacking at branches rather than assessing (let alone attempting to extract) the roots.

How is it that when someone says Putin belongs in a cell with the people responsible for myriad US invasions your reaction to that is that they are suddenly not indignant about those US invasions? Dr Evil is literally saying they are as bad and yet you comment as if they aren't.

Lets be clear here. Putin is at least as bad as any US leader of the last 20 years.

he's not a good guy, he's a cunt.

There are no good guys.

Let's be clear here.

This is a proxy war of a corrupt US oligarchy against a corrupt Russian oligarchy. The only people benefiting from this war are the war mongering oligarchs on both sides who fomented this conflict. The average Ukrainian is surely not benefitting from this war. Nor is the average US or European citizen. War is a racket among gangster classes. Any stance against negotiating a peaceful settlement ASAP is based solely on sort of bizarre rooting interest for one corrupt side over the other. What the fuck is wrong with people's brains?

If it takes ceding a few Ukrainian areas that were previously getting shelled by Ukrainian forces in a civil war because these areas are over 80% ethnic Russian to Russia, I'm all for it. End this war ASAP.

Otherwise, the USA will use this as yet another excuse to do its best to make sure yet another large swath of the world "still exists."

That you are siding 100% with the US military industrial complex should at least give you pause. That it does not baffles me.

How do you go from what I wrote to this:

That you are siding 100% with the US military industrial complex should at least give you pause. That it does not baffles me.


????

Don't be baffled. Understand you interpret things in a way that allows you to frame people as your ideological enemies. Whatever they just said., I guess its to make up for some lack of something in your life.

The only person I'm siding with is Dr Evil. I guess he feels a bit like some Hawaiians did 120 years ago, or Mexicans 70 ish years earlier. Wondering if he'll end up at war with a country run by corrupt oligarchs.

[stickdog99]

And if that were to occur, would he accept only the unconditional surrender of the corrupt invading oligarchy just as long other corrupt oligarchies kept the arms flowing into his war-torn country? Or could a negotiated settlement ever be on the table?

In all seriousness, what do you and Dr. Evil imagine Putin's desired endgame is in this conflict? Taking over the world or repelling US military bases and US armed and trained Nazi forces from one or Russia's most important borders, the east coast of which is primarily ethnic Russian?

[Joe Hillshoist]

And if that were to occur, would he accept only the unconditional surrender of the corrupt invading oligarchy just as long other corrupt oligarchies kept the arms flowing into his war-torn country? Or could a negotiated settlement ever be on the table?

I can't speak for what Dr Evil thinks about it.

In all seriousness, what do you and Dr. Evil imagine Putin's desired endgame is in this conflict? Taking over the world or repelling US military bases and US armed and trained Nazi forces from one or Russia's most important borders, the east coast of which is primarily ethnic Russian?

Honestly I dunno if Putin has a clue right now. It seems crazy if his army's actions are what was reported in the media this year. It seemed strategically inept given how modern warfare goes.

But honestly so much of this whole story seems like bullshit so i dunno what to think about it.

[DrEvil]

I think that as long as Ukraine wants to fight we should help them with material, intelligence and training, like we're doing right now. If Ukraine decides it's time to talk we should support that and put maximum pressure on Russia to get the best possible deal for Ukraine.

LOL. Who the fuck do you think "Ukraine" is other than "we should help them with material, intelligence and training, like we're doing right now"?

What you are saying is simply that we should pull the plug just as soon as the US MIC wants to pull the plug. The green screen behind Zelensky is the US MIC. How can you not at least see this?

Pretty sure Ukraine is a bunch of people who don't like it when their neighbor decides to invade them and start bombing shit. Or do you think Ukraine consists entirely of Zelenskyy and some Nazis? Is it all a nation of crisis actors? I must have imagined the Ukrainian refugees arriving in my town.

[DrEvil]

This is a proxy war of a corrupt US oligarchy against a corrupt Russian oligarchy. The only people benefiting from this war are the war mongering oligarchs on both sides who fomented this conflict. The average Ukrainian is surely not benefitting from this war. Nor is the average US or European citizen. War is a racket among gangster classes. Any stance against negotiating a peaceful settlement ASAP is based solely on sort of bizarre rooting interest for one corrupt side over the other. What the fuck is wrong with people's brains?

Precisely this, very well-said.

@DrEvil: I am kind of stunned to see you outright endorse the current foreign aid policy of the US (and other Western powers, but predominantly the US), as if the military-industrial complex has somehow turned into a force for good. You present the situation as though we just have a totally sovereign nation choosing to accept help from NATO members/affiliates in order to defend itself. In reality, the "help" is a means of propping up Ukraine as a puppet in a global conflict with Russia. And this is nothing new: for years the US has been backing (largely neo-Nazi) militias to skirmish near the Russian border and harass Ukrainians in favor of friendlier relations with Russia, with a key financial supporter of these militias bankrolling Ukraine's current president who now oversees this conflict. The current "aid" to Ukraine is not supporting the Ukrainian people; it's supporting the US's use of them as human shields to further weaken Russia.

You talk about an "existential crisis" that Ukrainians are feeling as a result Russia's invasion, and contrast it with the impact of the US's own coup in 2014. That just comes across as you downplaying how horrifying it must be to have influential contingents of neo-Nazis (plus, more recently, Zelenskyy's secret police) violently suppressing dissent, as well as knowing that you're being used as pawns by a superpower that really doesn't give a fuck about you.

And that's not what Russia is doing right now? Their original goal was a quick blitz to Kiev to replace the government with their own puppets to use as meat shields against further US encroachment. That failed, so now they're bogged down in an extended shooting war. They're doing the exact damn thing you're all so upset at the US about, only with way more death and destruction.

How would you feel if someone invaded your country while talking openly about how your country isn't even a real country and that giving you independence in the first place was a mistake, and then starts annexing parts of it? Wouldn't you be a little worried that they might want all of it? And wouldn't you view that as an existential threat to your country?

[DrEvil]

And if that were to occur, would he accept only the unconditional surrender of the corrupt invading oligarchy just as long other corrupt oligarchies kept the arms flowing into his war-torn country? Or could a negotiated settlement ever be on the table?

In all seriousness, what do you and Dr. Evil imagine Putin's desired endgame is in this conflict? Taking over the world or repelling US military bases and US armed and trained Nazi forces from one or Russia's most important borders, the east coast of which is primarily ethnic Russian?

His endgame was to quickly install his own puppet regime, which of course is much better and purer than an American puppet regime, plus take out the Nazis and the regular armed forces. Then he would be free to do whatever the fuck he wanted to the country, including peacefully, at gunpoint, annexing the parts he's now trying to take by force. That obviously failed, so now he probably just wants whatever he can get so he can tell the people back home he didn't just sacrifice thousands of young men for nothing.

[Marionumber1]

And that's not what Russia is doing right now? Their original goal was a quick blitz to Kiev to replace the government with their own puppets to use as meat shields against further US encroachment. That failed, so now they're bogged down in an extended shooting war. They're doing the exact damn thing you're all so upset at the US about, only with way more death and destruction.

How would you feel if someone invaded your country while talking openly about how your country isn't even a real country and that giving you independence in the first place was a mistake, and then starts annexing parts of it? Wouldn't you be a little worried that they might want all of it? And wouldn't you view that as an existential threat to your country?

What a weird non-sequitur that (once again) argues against a claim that I never made. You wrote two paragraphs about how bad Russia's invasion is when that's something I've said myself and never disputed. What I said is that it's silly to pretend Ukraine's "existential threat" began with Russia's invasion, considering the US/NATO coup and their continued subversion of Ukraine's sovereignty for the near-decade since.

After being called out for supporting the West's continued fueling of a proxy war in Ukraine (and I'm sure you'd dispute that, but you did openly endorse the "aid" policies that do so), your only response is "But Russia!". You're doing exactly what you accuse everyone else of doing: supporting one superpower under the guise of anti-imperialism.

[stickdog99]

Right. Who is defending Russian aggression? Not me.

Russia sucks for doing this. But now what? Let the USA use this as an excuse to destroy Ukraine in a protracted proxy war against Russia? How does this help the average Ukrainian?

[DrEvil]

And that's not what Russia is doing right now? Their original goal was a quick blitz to Kiev to replace the government with their own puppets to use as meat shields against further US encroachment. That failed, so now they're bogged down in an extended shooting war. They're doing the exact damn thing you're all so upset at the US about, only with way more death and destruction.

How would you feel if someone invaded your country while talking openly about how your country isn't even a real country and that giving you independence in the first place was a mistake, and then starts annexing parts of it? Wouldn't you be a little worried that they might want all of it? And wouldn't you view that as an existential threat to your country?

What a weird non-sequitur that (once again) argues against a claim that I never made. You wrote two paragraphs about how bad Russia's invasion is when that's something I've said myself and never disputed. What I said is that it's silly to pretend Ukraine's "existential threat" began with Russia's invasion, considering the US/NATO coup and their continued subversion of Ukraine's sovereignty for the near-decade since.

After being called out for supporting the West's continued fueling of a proxy war in Ukraine (and I'm sure you'd dispute that, but you did openly endorse the "aid" policies that do so), your only response is "But Russia!". You're doing exactly what you accuse everyone else of doing: supporting one superpower under the guise of anti-imperialism.

No, I'm supporting Ukraine's right to defend themselves against an invasion. You keep trying to reduce this down to US vs Russia, but there's an actual country in the middle, being actually invaded by one of those powers. If them defending themselves means getting aid from one of those parties, so what?

[DrEvil]

Right. Who is defending Russian aggression? Not me.

Russia sucks for doing this. But now what? Let the USA use this as an excuse to destroy Ukraine in a protracted proxy war against Russia? How does this help the average Ukrainian?

It's Russia destroying Ukraine, in case you haven't been paying attention. How is Ukraine defending themselves against an invasion a bad thing? Does bad shit happen in war? Duh. Does that mean everyone should just immediately bend over next time someone *cough*USA*cough* decides to have an adventure to avoid casualties? If that's the case, I hereby declare my intent to invade the US. I want to annex all the states with legal weed (and Utah). I expect your surrender within 24 hours so we can avoid any damage to life and property, and if you decide to resist or ask others for help you're just being selfish.

And you keep talking about this war as if it's exclusively between the US and Russia, completely ignoring that there's a whole country full of people who might have opinions and shit about being invaded. And you say you're not defending Russian aggression, but didn't you also say that you're fine with Russia annexing parts of Ukraine? So they shouldn't have invaded, but since they did they should at least get something for it? I think the word you're looking for is hypocrite.

Everyone in this thread is at pains to point out they don't support the war, immediately followed by "but America...". If American actions aren't a justification for Russia to invade then why do you keep bringing it up? It's not like people here don't know what the US did in Ukraine. It sounds like the war crime version of "I'm not racist, but...".

[Belligerent Savant]

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Comic book (DC/Marvel) version of geopolitics.
Inevitable in our zeitgeist.

The fanciful tales conjured in the minds of a sizable percentage, aided by popular media, to keep more troubling ruminations suppressed, or better yet, never even considered.

[DrEvil]

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Comic book (DC/Marvel) version of geopolitics.
Inevitable in our zeitgeist.

The fanciful tales conjured in the minds of a sizable percentage, aided by popular media, to keep more troubling ruminations suppressed, or better yet, never even considered.

Mind explaining what's so fanciful about thinking a country has the right to defend itself from an invasion? Russia is invading Ukraine, yes? Ukraine is defending itself, right? So what does it matter that the US has been meddling in Ukraine? You either think that meddling is a justifiable reason to invade or you don't. If you don't, then why do you keep bringing it up all the time? The only reason I can think of is that you aren't really that opposed to the war. Admit it, it's nice seeing America's plans blowing up in their face.

There's always hemming and hawing and caveats and buts. Oh, but America did bad things too! Zelenskyy is just an American puppet! The whole country is wall-to-wall Nazis!

Anything to downplay how fucking horrible it is to invade another country and bomb the shit out of it.

It's weird, in this place of all places, having to scream at the top of my lungs to try to get people to agree that aggressive warfare is categorically bad, the end. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions.

[Belligerent Savant]

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You're succeeding in adding credence to my point.